Powercranks the new black - blogging about powercranking

[aleksandar]

Okay I am kinda super bored here in Copenhagen…haven’t seen the sun for weeks and just feel like opening a can of…worms.

Not really…but wanted to let anyone who could be intrested in following my journey onto powercranks. I got them a couple of weeks ago and so far so so painful.

I have two blogs that will have info on my powercranking… www.pulsslag.dk if you understand danish or my still underdeveloped english site www.pulsslag.com

So far it has been a painful two weeks but also with huge improvemnts…thank god. My first ride left me wondering WTF and depressed and out of breath I went to buy candy instead of training…talk about a beating for my ego. But my hipflexors are comming around and I am now able to ride 90 min cadance 75 without having more urge than normal to stop the training and go home and eat…yes you guessed it…candy.

Aleksandar

[Frank_Day]

I, for one, will be interested in following your journey. Looks like your transition is moving along nicely. Have “fun”. Good luck.

[Dreadnought]

… I am now able to ride 90 min cadance 75 …

That is great that you can maintain it that long. You may want to include some intervals at higher rpms, or gradually increase your rpms and see where you can max it out.

As I recall one individual posted a Powercranks workout in which he did 20 min intervals at 110 rpm.

I personally find the highest power output is in the 80-90 rpm range. When I use lower gears and higher rpms (over 100), I find it much harder to generate the same amount of power.

[aleksandar]

Thanks for the tip. At the moment it seems that cadance 75 is my limit…when every I hit 80 i can feel it right away. I invented my own drill ( I am sure it’s already know but I never read about it). I do one legged drill max power high cadance for like 45 sec/60 sec then rest. I think this is good for the nerves but again it might also just be good for resting the other leg.

What I find hardest is to be in aero position…I can’t do that for more that 30 sec. I am gettig to where I don’t have to sit up straight but can rest on my base bar but that is so far a huge challenge. I raised my bar to it’s max so hopefully my legs will come around…

[hillier99]

a painful two weeks but also with huge improvemnts…

I am interested in what “improvements” you have seen. What measures are you using to gauge these improvements?

I’m curious to see how you can tell if you are becoming a more efficient/powerful/faster cyclist or if you are just getting better at using Powercranks.

Brad

[aleksandar]

Hi Brad
With improvements I am at the moment talking about the ability to use powercranks - putting it simple. I am improving my firing pattern if this will lead to power improvements and more speed…who knows…
However I am not guessing about it…I use powermeter (ergomo and powertap) also I get tested once a month or so when I am in training.
Most important is if I will se better overall results but this ofcourse requires much more than just buying a trianing tool.

As regards to watts at the moment…they are not looking good which is also what the powercrank site suggested…they say around a 6 week setback or something…I am sure there are also many opions on this but for me I have decieded that a setback in preformance is okay so try and see if I can get something out of the cranks.

Once I collect more data you will find both objective data and subjective feelings on my site. Thanks for following

[Former_User]

“Once I collect more data”

Ha! Why do that? This is Slowtwitch. Just make a call and stick to it.

[tigermilk]

Yes, power will be down for some time. I’ve been logging my use with them at http://james-p-smith.blogspot.com. At one point over the fall I wrote how I was struggling with maintaining threshold power, but then one day things just clicked and I busted out a 20 minute interval at a power near (or maybe above - can’t remember) my yearly best. And last week was a great week with them as well, with my second highest recorded hour power (since 2003).

[Frank_Day]

Yes, power will be down for some time. I’ve been logging my use with them at http://james-p-smith.blogspot.com. At one point over the fall I wrote how I was struggling with maintaining threshold power, but then one day things just clicked and I busted out a 20 minute interval at a power near (or maybe above - can’t remember) my yearly best. And last week was a great week with them as well, with my second highest recorded hour power (since 2003).
I was about to point him (and everyone) to your blog as an example of what one might expect. It takes time. The early “improvement” people talk about is in simply being able to ride the PowerCranks. Overall improvement takes time. Although, I think, most are seeing some overall improvement a little faster than you have, most are not at the level you (and I think Aleksandar) are. Although you know I think your improvement would have come a little faster if you had been doing those “saturday hammerfests” on the PC’s, you have been using them enough that it has eventually started to come. The better you are before starting them the slower the improvement seems to come and the smaller it will probably be. But, it will come, if one stays with them.

[tigermilk]

I will say one thing Frank - moving into VO2 workouts was a LOT easier this year than in previous years. The first few weeks of PCs were like long VO2 sessions (the breathing response, not in terms of power).

Unfortunately I’m off to LA for a few days, and I doubt the hotel has a PC equipped exercise bike I’ll try to make it a point to use PCs more on the hammerfest rides. Only problem is it’s just so hard to respond to hard attacks on PCs like you can with regular cranks (you have to admit that).

[Frank_Day]

I will say one thing Frank - moving into VO2 workouts was a LOT easier this year than in previous years. The first few weeks of PCs were like long VO2 sessions (the breathing response, not in terms of power).

Unfortunately I’m off to LA for a few days, and I doubt the hotel has a PC equipped exercise bike I’ll try to make it a point to use PCs more on the hammerfest rides. Only problem is it’s just so hard to respond to hard attacks on PCs like you can with regular cranks (you have to admit that).
It is only harder to respond because you are not trained to the level, yet!!! That fact that you still feel it is harder to respond to these short term demands simply means you have more work to do, IMHO. It seems to me the best way to train yourself to these demands is to put yourself in situations where you have to do it or fail.

Many people are afraid to do the hard work now because they are afraid of what it will mean to next week or next months race. Your approach was about as good as I could imagine if one wanted to transition to PC’s but also race well a month from now. But to get the most out of PC’s I think you have to put your ego aside and not worry about the near term races with the goal of seeing bigger benefits in races that will be occurring 6 months into the future and later.

[Berzin]

As regards to watts at the moment…they are not looking good which is also what the powercrank site suggested…they say around a 6 week setback or something…I am sure there are also many opions on this but for me I have decieded that a setback in performance is okay so try and see if I can get something out of the cranks.

 Here is a contraption that would kill two birds with one stone. Very interesting, but I'm not sure who sells it or what it retails for-

http://i42.tinypic.com/2zdzm84.jpg

[perfection]

It is only harder to respond because you are not trained to the level, yet!!! That fact that you still feel it is harder to respond to these short term demands simply means you have more work to do, IMHO. It seems to me the best way to train yourself to these demands is to put yourself in situations where you have to do it or fail.

It is harder to respond only because mashing will always be more powerful or explosive than the technique demanded by PC’s, the attempted circular style where muscles have to try and generate some force in four different directions instead of the one direction instant powerful stroke of mashing.

[wimaboju]

The first time I rode them I made the mistake of using them on the trainer. 4 minutes!! That is all I got out of them. I found that hanging on to the back of a group ride helped me out tremendously on them. Good Luck.

[Dreadnought]

… mashing will always be more powerful or explosive than the technique demanded by PC’s, the attempted circular style where muscles have to try and generate some force in four different directions instead of the one direction instant powerful stroke of mashing.

Interesting point. You will not find a consensus of opinion on this. There are many cycling experts that believe as you do, but I don’t think that anyone has proven unequivocally which technique is better.

Having said that, it is fairly easy for a Powercranker to resort to the mashing or stomping technique, but I don’t think that a masher could resort to the Powercrank spin technique unless he also had extensive training on Powercranks. So if anything, the Powercranker is better able to deal with changes in cycling technique.

[rik]

I was about to point him (and everyone) to your blog as an example of what one might expect. It takes time. The early “improvement” people talk about is in simply being able to ride the PowerCranks.

You mean like this example from Tigermilk’s blog from 12/30/2008? (my bold):

"To date I have sufficient data at hand that clearly demonstrates that PowerCranks, once adapted to (and given my ability to ride them for 4+ hours at a high pace or complete critical interval sessions as if they were fixed cranks), have not been able to raise my power.

I really, really, really (you can add some more reallys if you want) want to increase my aerobic power, and I was hoping the PowerCranks experiment would given me just a 5% gain. I’m not greedy; I’m not looking for that 40% power increase or 2-3 mph claim. Just give me 5%, or about 12 watts, which would be about 1/3 mph. ** **Alas, no gains."

This is after riding PCs for 6 months. Am I missing something here?

Rik

[Dreadnought]

"To date I have sufficient data at hand that clearly demonstrates that PowerCranks, once adapted to (and given my ability to ride them for 4+ hours at a high pace or complete critical interval sessions as if they were fixed cranks), have not been able to raise my power.

Now that you are at least somewhat adapted, have you compared you power output with Powercranks to your power output with traditional fixed cranks?

There are many powercrankers who use them for training only, because they feel that they can’t generate as much outright power with PC’s during a race. Theoretically someone who is fully adapted shouldn’t have that problem.

[Frank_Day]

I was about to point him (and everyone) to your blog as an example of what one might expect. It takes time. The early “improvement” people talk about is in simply being able to ride the PowerCranks.

 You mean like this example from Tigermilk's blog from 12/30/2008? (my bold):   

"To date I have sufficient data at hand that clearly demonstrates that PowerCranks, once adapted to (and given my ability to ride them for 4+ hours at a high pace or complete critical interval sessions as if they were fixed cranks), have not been able to raise my power.

I really, really, really (you can add some more reallys if you want) want to increase my aerobic power, and I was hoping the PowerCranks experiment would given me just a 5% gain. I’m not greedy; I’m not looking for that 40% power increase or 2-3 mph claim. Just give me 5%, or about 12 watts, which would be about 1/3 mph. ** **Alas, no gains."

This is after riding PCs for 6 months. Am I missing something here?

Rik
LOL. Yes, I would say you are missing something.

First, despite what the title of his blog says, it was not 6 months. He did not start riding them seriously until mid August. Further, his own graph shows only 21 weeks of use with zero usage the first week, so 20 weeks, a far cry from the 26 weeks required for a six month analysis.

Second, despite his saying he felt fully adapted he clearly was not since two weeks later he set some more personal bests. Compare these graphs showing his progression. The black is his all-time best. The green is his best efforts for the year prior to starting PC’s, and the red represents his best efforts since starting PC’s.

Here is what he was reporting in November:

Here is what he reported in his “six month” analysis at the end of December where he stated he was “fully” adapted:

Yet, this is where he was two weeks later:

He looks even better if you look at average power, which is what people actually do during racing:

Why someone would conclude from this steady progression that they are “fully adapted” baffles me. I see nothing but hope for further progression with further hard work. Only when the improvements stop coming would I conclude that I am fully adapted and the PC’s have nothing more to offer.

James also made another error in his analysis, IMHO, when he stated he thought it possible his improvements might be due to more TSS. However, his coumulative TSS is actually less since getting on the PC’s because of the early hit his training took. It simply looks like he is trying to come up with explanations that do not include the PC’s.

If he had not agreed to use them for a year, as part of the ST review, based upon his comments that he thought he was fully adapted, I could see him giving up on them a couple of weeks ago as the race season approached, calling them a failure. He would not be the first. Anyhow, it is for this very reason that I required all of the participants in the ST review to train on the cranks, exclusively, for a year. Tigermilk has not ridden them exclusively for this period (I think he would be further along if he had) but he has used them “enough”, and he is using them in a manner that many users do, and his historical data is so good (which is why he was chosen, besides his being as good as almost anyone here) that I don’t think anyone will accuse him doing a “Joaquin” (even though his PT did fail on him once when he had some very good numbers) such that I think he will be a valuable member of this evaluation.

I look forward to your comments and his analysis based upon where he is 6 months from now.

[rik]

Bottom line (from 1/18/2008): “So while I’m reaching historical bests across the board and have been pretty consistent week in and week out, I’m still not busting through my important historical plateaus. I still hold out hope for that, however.”

Here’s a translation for you Frank: his power has not increased using PowerCranks.

The historical data goes back 5 years, but it appears his highest 20 minute and 60 minute NP is from 2006 and 2007. So 6 months of PowerCrank training and he is right where he has been historically. When’s that 40% gonna happen?

Rik

[Frank_Day]

Bottom line (from 1/18/2008): “So while I’m reaching historical bests across the board and have been pretty consistent week in and week out, I’m still not busting through my important historical plateaus. I still hold out hope for that, however.”

Here’s a translation for you Frank: his power has not increased using PowerCranks.

The historical data goes back 5 years, but it appears his highest 20 minute and 60 minute NP is from 2006 and 2007. So 6 months of PowerCrank training and he is right where he has been historically. When’s that 40% gonna happen?

Rik
Perhaps you didn’t read my earlier post. He still is not at 6 months of PowerCranking. That being said,

PowerCranks are not a short term proposition. While some see and report improvement right away for most it takes substantial time and effort. I don’t know when 40% is going to happen or if it is going to happen. There are several confounding factors. 1. He still is not using the cranks in the manner prescribed to see the 40% improvement. 2. The 40% improvement is an average improvement (he is substantially better than our average customer so smaller improvement should be expected). 3. And our claim is it takes 6 to 9 months to see such improvements.

He is just to the point that he can do his normal 2-3 hour training rides on them and not feel wasted. He cannot do his Saturday Hammerfests on them without feeling wasted. He calls that being “fully adapted”. If you took your normal new cyclist and he came here and told you he felt fully adapted to cycling after 6 months now that he is able to ride “hard” for 3-4 hours and, because of this adaption, he wouldn’t expect to see any more improvement in his preparation for this years races you would be laughing at him telling him it takes years of hard cycling to approach “plateau” status. Why don’t you think the same applies to the new muscles the PC’s are training? The cranks are just starting to feel normal to him. Why do you think that equates to being “fully adapted”?

Anyhow, the only numbers he really cares about are the 45-60 minute number as he is primarily a time-trialist. He is substantially above last years best power numbers (the green line) despite lower or similar TSS numbers. He is essentially the equal of his all-time best power numbers (the black line) despite substantially lower TSS numbers. His power trend is definitely up. He states he is not greedy and really only wants 5% improvement. As I read this data and look at the trend, that is going to be easy, just a matter of time, and probably not a lot more time at that. He has years of experience and data and his power was going down, not up when he got the PowerCranks.

To me, there are really only three questions:

1. How much improvement will he be seeing at the end of the year?
2. What is the best metric to use to judge the PowerCranks benefit, last years data or his previous best?
3. How much better would his improvement be (now, and at the end of the year) if he had used them as we recommend?

PowerCranks completely change the way someone rides a bike and require a substantial committment to make the change. If you can’t see how it might take 6 months or more to see improvement in a rider of Tigermilks ability I don’t know what to say.

Bottom line. His power is still improving and there are more than 6 months left in the little experiment. I am not concerned. As I said, I look forward to your analysis then.