What was your initial training plan with the PCs and what is it now? Is the initial plan the same for all new PCers? Have you raced with them?
i rode them all the time when i got them for a period of around 3 months. i did not have problem with adaptation - i rode them 100 miles the third day/time i was out on them.
i took a break from them for the fall cyclocross season, and then rode them on rollers all winter. i spun them like a crazy mofo, with little resistance on the rollers mag unit and i even took the big ring off the bike to force the issue.
nowadays i have them on what has come to be a pretty PC specific bike. i ride them all winter on the rollers, and a few times a week usually the other times of the year. i find this to be very enjoyable and it certainly seems to me to be effective considering what i have to work with ( me ).
i don’t know if this is best plan. i think, personally, that far far far too much is made of things, on both “sides” of the insane PC debate. once you get past the cost and the rhetoric they are just a really simple and fun - unique and effective - training device which basically speaks for itself for users. i wonder sometimes what would be the result if people put EVERYTHING that is supposed to be good for yer riding under the same crazy hyper-scrutiny as they do with PC’s. anyway, i have been riding and racing bikes a pretty long time, and i was well impressed with them fairly early on and since then have just ridden them as i felt like it and enjoyed them and the ( to me) obvious help they give in racing and riding. that is good enuf for me.
i would never race on them - i do not see the point of that at all. hope this helps.
What was your initial training plan with the PCs and what is it now? Is the initial plan the same for all new PCers? Have you raced with them?
Since it doesn’t look like you will get a reasonable variety of PowerCranks user responses I will give you my observations.
PC training plans are all over the map. It depends mostly on two things:
- Your specialty or what you are concentrating on or want to get out of the cranks and,
- How important you think it is to truly learn the PC style of pedaling.
I’ve got 'em, I love 'em.
I got them in January of this year, and used them exclusively for three months. It was perfect, because the winter here was terrible, so I just rode the trainer every day. I put 2200 miles on them before riding regular cranks again. I found that I adapted pretty quickly, and I feel that they helped my riding and running A LOT.
Now that I’m in pretty specific IM training, I spend most of my time on my race bike. But I still ride the PCs about once per week (20-30 miles), to remember the motion and stuff like that. I think it’s working well. Next winter, I’ll put another couple of thousand miles on them.
-Colin
Maybe one thing people don’t say enough about PCs is that they add an extra component of fun to your bike training. They are fun to ride (even tough it hurts to ride them).
I don’t have enough experience on them at the moment to tell you anything else.
Quite literally, my initial training play with PC’s was time. Initially, on a trainer, I could only do 5 minutes straight, with a 10 minute break. I was suprised at how hard they made me work. I just kept gradually adding more and now, 18 months later, this past Saturday, my long workout was 20mi warm up with a 40 mile TT then a 20 cool down with a 5 mile run. just added both volume and intensity very slowly.
Initially, I rode them all the time and then switched to real cranks for racing. The downside to this is that the quads are not loaded quite the same on PCs and then when you switch back, the quads tend to blow. Frank may argue about this until we are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that a training tool is just that, a training tool. You also have to train on real cranks to race well on them.
2 years later, I use PC’s on my commuter bike which is a Kestrel 200 SC road bike (I know, I am total poser for commuting on carbon fiber road machine). I do 30 min ride in the morning and 30 min in the evening 4 days per week, so that is 4 hours on PCs…devoted primarily to low intensity (ie HR<120 bpm) high RPM technique work and leg synchronization. I typically do another 10 hours on regular cranks. One is a hard 90K ride on Wed morning, the other a weekend long ride. So far this season, I have had solid bike splits in all my events and my bike-run combo has been as good or better than it ever has at age 39.
Bottom line, initally ride PC’s all the time and once you have adapted, go back and forth often within a week to get the best of both worlds.
This is likely the best of both worlds.
Initially, I rode them all the time and then switched to real cranks for racing. The downside to this is that the quads are not loaded quite the same on PCs and then when you switch back, the quads tend to blow. Frank may argue about this until we are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that a training tool is just that, a training tool. You also have to train on real cranks to race well on them. . . .
Bottom line, initally ride PC’s all the time and once you have adapted, go back and forth often within a week to get the best of both worlds.
This is likely the best of both worlds.
I can see how someone might see that to be the best way to use them for “immediate” racing benefit but, I don’t see it as the best long-term strategy. If you stop training on them full time so you can go back to pushing hard on regular cranks to train your quads you are stopping the adaption of your HF’s while you are working on your quads. This will keep these two major muscle groups different in ability for the forseeable future. If you stay with the PC’s eventually the HF’s should be the equal of all the other muscles in relative capability and you can go back to pushing hard with the quads, even while riding the PC’s. Until the rider rides the same regardless of which cranks are on the bicycle I think there is still substantial room for PC training improvement and the need to continue to use them essentially exclusively in training. I just cannot see any advantage to ever training on regular cranks unless one is a mountain biker or trackie and needs to work on certain technical skills. It is a long-term process for everyone.
Holy crap Frank…when will you back down. Show me all the long time PC users that use them all the time please. I love your product, and I respect you as an innovator. At some point you have to accept that your customer will find the best way to use your product to fit in with their goals, training and lifestyle.
I am not sure that developing the Hip Flexors to the extent that you are suggesting is all that beneficial. There is a reason why our quads adapted how they have. If not, you would have all kinds of PC guys going sub 8 at Ironman and winning the Tour de France on exclusive use. The reality is that even your top athletes are going with mixed usage. Show us the training logs of one of your athletes who is going sub 8 on exclusive use, or winning the TdF or classics on exclusive use and I will back down. Your product has been out there for several years now, so surely you can back this up 
Holy crap Frank…when will you back down. Show me all the long time PC users that use them all the time please. I love your product, and I respect you as an innovator. At some point you have to accept that your customer will find the best way to use your product to fit in with their goals, training and lifestyle.
I am not sure that developing the Hip Flexors to the extent that you are suggesting is all that beneficial. There is a reason why our quads adapted how they have. If not, you would have all kinds of PC guys going sub 8 at Ironman and winning the Tour de France on exclusive use. The reality is that even your top athletes are going with mixed usage. Show us the training logs of one of your athletes who is going sub 8 on exclusive use, or winning the TdF or classics on exclusive use and I will back down. Your product has been out there for several years now, so surely you can back this up
Hey, I might be wrong and each customer can use them as they see fit. I believe there are a few elite customers who use them essentially exclusively and have done so for several years. Raynard Tissink is one I believe (he doesn’t submit his training logs to me) or Kevin Philbrick who just won the Race Across Oregon as a rookie. I am sure there are others. Just because somebody is doing something now and has seen excellent results does not mean that is the optimum use of the product. And, optimum could be different for people with different needs and goals.
The fact that my TDF riders are not using them exclusively is not evidence that exclusive use is not optimum for our typical user or, even, for them. TDF riders are being paid big bucks to race every weekend and they could see a break in performance if they went to exclusive use, especially during the season. As Steve Larsen told me in the spring of his first year when his mountain bike season started and he couldn’t continue exclusive use, “I need recovery days and these are not recovery to me yet.” He was racing every week though as a professional. Most triathletes do not race every week. I understand exclusive use may not be “best” for everyone.
In my last post I was simply trying to tell you why I think going back and forth is not optimum and why my recommendation for optimum benefit (for the long term) is still for exclusive use, even after the initial adaption period seems complete. The fact that few users are actually using them so does not make the recommendation invalid unless we find that when substantial numbers are doing so they go slower than those using them part time. You, of course, are free to use them as you determine is best for you and to make that recommendation to others. You, however, are coming from a database of one. I get reports from all over and compare the results seen by many. At least you agree with me and think exclusive use is optimum in the beginning.
Anyhow, I think it is my duty to give advice to my customers to help them get the best possible use from my product. If there is any evidence that what you are doing is the best use (it is an ok use, I just don’t believe it to be the best use and I told you why). I will change my recommendations when the evidence supports such a change as it would be in my best interest to pass that data along to the customers. Until I see evidence to change my recommendations I will continue to sound like a broken record.
“This will keep these two major muscle groups different in ability for the forseeable future.” - Frank Day
“Well, of course. And being two different muscle groups they should be expected to have different capabilities for the forseeable future of humanity. Given the postural alignment of the body when riding a road bike, and especially a tri/TT bike, one should expect that the quads will be doing more work. Maybe on a unicycle where the body is upright we could expect to see a smaller difference in capabilities of the HF’s and HE’s?” - sojourner
By equal abilities I am referring to equal aerobic abilites and relative effort. The only reason people can’t push down hard with the quads in the beginning with PC’s is such an effort will bring the cadence up beyond the ability of the HF’s to keep it up. Since the PC’s never require any more work of the HF’s on the upstroke than simply keeping up with the cadence, it should be possible to get up to these qual capabilities. I just got an email from a new user track rider who can sustain 130 rpm for a couple of minutes and has a PC maximum cadence of 201 (for 5 seconds) even though his regular cadence maximum is 270. To get to that regular caadence maximum he has to be cheating. It will take a lot of work to get to where his PC and regular cadence maximum are the same but it should be possible. Should he stop trying? What is the best way to get there? I think it is continued exclusive use.
“Until the rider rides the same regardless of which cranks are on the bicycle I think there is still substantial room for PC training improvement and the need to continue to use them essentially exclusively in training.” - Frank Day
“The interesting thing I found while using these cranks is that to ride with the same style it takes more energy to put out an equal amount of power to standard or rotor cranks. This is especially so when climbing out of the saddle. Now, I do believe there is something strangely efficient to climbing out of the saddle on PC’s, where there is a pause at the bottom of the stroke, but I don’t think we’ll ever see somebody who can climb out of the saddle for periods approaching an hour with a totally smooth “circular” stroke, as is possible on regular cranks. It just takes too much energy to accomplish, it’s very inefficient unless one is willing/wanting to go anaerobic. Nearly the entire weight of the body must be supported by the arms when trying to climb like that, and other than being extremely difficult to do for short periods, and impossible to do at sub-anaerobic outputs, I found myself wondering if I wasn’t going to break my handlebars.” - Sojourner
Yes, but you never got to where you could pedal normally. It does take more energy becaause you are developing more power and so you have to train these muscles to sustain this effort. You never got there because this takes lots of repetitions and it isn’t going to happen in our 3 month guarantee period. Whether we will ever seen anyone being able to pedal out of the saddle for an hour or not is not the issue (although I believe we will). What is the issue is what is the sustainable power output for any rider in or out of the saddle. Most PC’ers find they hardly ever have to come out of the saddle after adaption because they have enough power in the saddle.
“I just cannot see any advantage to ever training on regular cranks unless one is a mountain biker or trackie and needs to work on certain technical skills.” - Frank Day
“Frank, ultimately, I wouldn’t expect you to see any advantage to ever using regular cranks or rotor cranks instead of power cranks because you simply don’t ride enough, or race at all as far as I know, to know through experience that power cranks, ironically enough, require a greater energy expenditure than regular cranks to get the same power delivered to the pedals. The body just doesn’t take years and years to adapt to something, the muscular adaptation process happens very rapidly, i.e. weeks not years, and then only in small increments over the long term (years).” - sojourner
And your evidence that this adaption takes place rapidly? What is the number of people who have set the marathon Olympic standard in their first year of trying. Then incrementally won the event in the next 5 years? Yes, a basic adaption takes place rapidly, just like one can turn a couch potato into a marathoner in less than a year. But, by no means are those muscles optimally trained in only a year. Big changes continue for another couple of years then things become incremental.
“I don’t mean to be harsh, I’m just giving my opinion because these “debates” are sometimes too hard to stay away from. For the record, I think PC’s have potential to help uncoordinated athletes become more coordinated, if they have a desire to work hard, and their lack of coordination is not so great that training with PC’s leads to injuries, as seems to happen more often with BOP’s than FOP’s. I’d also like to state another opinion; and again I find some irony here, in that I believe Powercranks have potential to help top athletes in nearly all sports except cycling. Bizarre, yes, but it’s how I feel.” -Sojourner
I agree with you here except for the injury potential and the coordination issue. Based upon my experience watching people get on the bike for the first time at expos I see little evidence coordination is dramatically correlated with current cycling ability. Yes, some are much better than others but there are lots of variable and some pros who get on them are really bad at it. Regarding the injury issue, I think the elite is more prone to injury because the drop in speed is more devastating to their egos so they try to do too much to fast than the BOP’ers who accept they are not any good and progress might be slow. The injury rate is so low that it is hard to know if this is truly the case though.
Frank
i love our man mr day.
anybody who rides on those rascals 100% for all time is a true freak among freaks, in my view. which, of course, is cool.
persoanlly tho - i think the hard line view put forth by mr day is less than ideally helpful, even if it is ( which it may or may not be) technically correct. with that said, i think he is forced into it by the ongoing and ridiculous Pc debate. essentially, dude has to constantaly put forth the " optimum" recommendation because he is constantly forced to put forth qulaitative numbers. what other thing do any of us do “optimally” ?? who rests perfectly, eats perfectly, weight trains pefectly, stretches perfectly, etc etc ?? nobody i know. PC’s do not need to prove themselves to me, and i use them as i like and as they fit my life and motivation, just like every other positive training practice.
it is unfortunate, i think, that PC’s are held out to this silly standard of hyper-scrutiny. they work great, are fun, and would help anybody who actually uses them i am sure. long term i do not think they are practical used exclusively - for a variety of reasons. i believe mr days insistance that this is the "best’ to approach long term use is not helping him or PC’s or potential customers/users. it gives the idea that when a rider reaches a natural plauteau or decline of enthusiasm toward them that their benfit is gone. it is an ‘either/or’ type mentality that is unfortunate. if and when a guy feels a lag in enthusiasm i sorta think the thing to do is to just use them less for spell, or only on occasion, or even take a break from them for a spell and re-evaluate.
i mean, people do that all the time with diet, weight training, spurts of intense training, etc. if i weight train like a mofo for 12 weeks and then slack some, or stop for a while does that mean weight training is not effective or that the stuff i did was to no benefit ?? of course not - it is only natural. why should PC’s be any different ?? they aren’t.
again, it is unfortunate that the unwarranted PC “debate” has caused this mentality, i believe.
Thanks TTN. I think we are in complete concurrence. I love the PC’s. They help me. They are a blast to ride…just not all the time…like on 7 hour rides. I love the look I get at stop signs with my legs down. I love the look I get when I pedal with both legs in perfect sych (ie both feet beside each other either going up, down forward or back…you gotta try this one…it is hard on the lower abs).
In any event, Frank’s product is great. They have helped me and will continue to help me. I highly recommend them to all. They will make you quicker.
Dev
<< I love the look I get at stop signs with my legs down. >>
I saw my first set of PC’s recently and the dude was descending the big hill in Harriman, and I did a double-take, as both of his feet were at the bottom. Looks totally bizarre. I can imagine the strange looks you’d get around town like that. (Plus, that pimp-tastic gold plated color draws “attention”, whether you like it or not…)
Pretty funny that Frankie D. was all over yer shit, as you are one of the handful of outspoken fans of his product here on ST. What’s that saying about not biting the hand that feeds you? 
…it is always good to have some intellectual sparring with my man Frank. Let me just say that I am a bit of free spirit and like to find my own way of doing things. Usually I start with the recommended approach and settle on some variant that serves my interests, that may or may not lead to optimal performance :-).
Another funny drill is to bring the bike up to speed, and continue pedalling forward with the right leg, but start pedalling backwards with the left leg. Most of these circus drills have no value, but results in so good entertainment value at traffic lights.
I actually had a cop stop me at stop light last week to ask about the cranks. He was a triathlete and I told him to go buy a pair
The other thing that is nice about Powercranks, is that I leave my bike unlocked as I go open water swimming in the nearby river. I’m not exactly worried that someone will step up with his running shoes and pedal away
…it is always good to have some intellectual sparring with my man Frank. Let me just say that I am a bit of free spirit and like to find my own way of doing things. Usually I start with the recommended approach and settle on some variant that serves my interests, that may or may not lead to optimal performance :-).
Another funny drill is to bring the bike up to speed, and continue pedalling forward with the right leg, but start pedalling backwards with the left leg. Most of these circus drills have no value, but results in so good entertainment value at traffic lights.
I actually had a cop stop me at stop light last week to ask about the cranks. He was a triathlete and I told him to go buy a pair
The other thing that is nice about Powercranks, is that I leave my bike unlocked as I go open water swimming in the nearby river. I’m not exactly worried that someone will step up with his running shoes and pedal away
Dev,
I think your approach is the approach most take. I simply try to encourage people to push the envelope, even after adaptation, because I think they can get even more out of them. After all they are a training device and training is supposed to be hard, not “fun” unless it is so “unfun” that you don’t do it. Make the training hard so the race comes easy.
Regarding the 'stealing" thing. I had a bike stolen out of my garage with one of my initial prototype pair on it. Clearly they were not riden away but probably thrown into the back of a truck by someone driving by. I would have loved to have seen him when he tried to ride it. Probably went right into the trash. Targets of opportunity are seen as that and they are seeing the bike, not the cranks. I would still lock it up.
Initially, I rode them all the time and then switched to real cranks for racing. The downside to this is that the quads are not loaded quite the same on PCs and then when you switch back, the quads tend to blow.<<
This was my experience too. I rode them for 6 months straight. Maybe eventually you will get your power up, but for me my power at threshold leveled off, and I couldn’t get off of it until I switched back to normal cranks. Then I moved up, leveled off with the powercranks again, moved up, etc. Power started at 300w then in 6 months of PC went to 320. Then back on the normal cranks I went to 340, leveled at 340 with the PC’s, then went to 350 with normal cranks, and so on. My power on PC’s was always about 5-8% lower than with normal cranks.
Maybe staying with them for an entire year is ultimately better but 6 months was all I was willing to devote.
Initially, I rode them all the time and then switched to real cranks for racing. The downside to this is that the quads are not loaded quite the same on PCs and then when you switch back, the quads tend to blow.<<
This was my experience too. I rode them for 6 months straight. Maybe eventually you will get your power up, but for me my power at threshold leveled off, and I couldn’t get off of it until I switched back to normal cranks. Then I moved up, leveled off with the powercranks again, moved up, etc. Power started at 300w then in 6 months of PC went to 320. Then back on the normal cranks I went to 340, leveled at 340 with the PC’s, then went to 350 with normal cranks, and so on. My power on PC’s was always about 5-8% lower than with normal cranks.
Maybe staying with them for an entire year is ultimately better but 6 months was all I was willing to devote.
That is an interesting approach if I understand it correctly. Went full time until you leveled out then back to regulars for awhile until leveled out, then back to PC’s and so on. Is that correct? Could you give some more details about how long the subsequent time periods were? Were you full time regular cranks when you went back or part time?
Frank
Yeah that’s pretty much it. My goal was improving 20min power. I considered the riding on the PC’s in the winter as my “base.” Then I did 7 week blocks. Rest weeks were long endurance miles no matter what crank, miles for non-PC was about 350mi and with PC was about 200mi @ endurance power.
Off of memory, after 6mo my 20min power was 320w. Then I did three weeks of intervals and racing designed for getting to 350w on normal cranks only. My 20min went to 330 and 10min went to 340-ish by the end of this time. Then a rest week on PC’s, and two weeks on PC’s with intervals designed for 20min power at 340w. After those two weeks I rode the same TT and my 20min power (normal cranks) was 340-ish (343, 342, something like that). Switched to normal cranks, took a rest week, end of block.
Then three weeks of normal cranks intervals and racing designed for getting to 360w. At the end, wattage was like 350. Rest week on PC’s then two weeks on PC’s with intervals designed for getting to 350w. I ended up with power at 358w (normal cranks).
The next block I included PC’s on certain easy days during the fixed crank blocks. I didn’t include any fixed crank in PC weeks except I think a race. For me, this was the most effective. At the end of the third block my power was 364 for 20min. I essentially copied the previous block for my third block, as this third block was really to solidify the 360. That was the end of the season. Everything was done with a PowerTap.
This year I am looking to get to 375w, and I am at about 370 right now. But the intervals are hard and you need to be well rested and have good motivation to do them well. This year I have lost a little focus.
Yeah that’s pretty much it. My goal was improving 20min power. I considered the riding on the PC’s in the winter as my “base.” Then I did 7 week blocks. Rest weeks were long endurance miles no matter what crank, miles for non-PC was about 350mi and with PC was about 200mi @ endurance power.
Off of memory, after 6mo my 20min power was 320w. Then I did three weeks of intervals and racing designed for getting to 350w on normal cranks only. My 20min went to 330 and 10min went to 340-ish by the end of this time. Then a rest week on PC’s, and two weeks on PC’s with intervals designed for 20min power at 340w. After those two weeks I rode the same TT and my 20min power (normal cranks) was 340-ish (343, 342, something like that). Switched to normal cranks, took a rest week, end of block.
Then three weeks of normal cranks intervals and racing designed for getting to 360w. At the end, wattage was like 350. Rest week on PC’s then two weeks on PC’s with intervals designed for getting to 350w. I ended up with power at 358w (normal cranks).
The next block I included PC’s on certain easy days during the fixed crank blocks. I didn’t include any fixed crank in PC weeks except I think a race. For me, this was the most effective. At the end of the third block my power was 364 for 20min. I essentially copied the previous block for my third block, as this third block was really to solidify the 360. That was the end of the season. Everything was done with a PowerTap.
This year I am looking to get to 375w, and I am at about 370 right now. But the intervals are hard and you need to be well rested and have good motivation to do them well. This year I have lost a little focus.
I like the plan. Since you are limiting your goals to 20 min power I think little is lost (as 20 minute PC endurance comes pretty easily) and there could be some benefit to this regimen over exclusive use. Someone needs to do a study.
However, if you were looking for 5 hour power I don’t think this would work as well until you have the really good 5 hour endurance. That won’t come in 6 months.