PowerCrank user poll to gather data

Triathlon Forum
21

I can see some merit in your approach under certain circumstances, such as an elite who is starting them during the season. It would allow them to see some benefit without changing anything significant.

I can’t see two 30-60 minute sessions a week at very low wattage being the best long term use for maximum benefit. Makes no sense to me. But, if your athletes are having success, well who can argue with that? Hmmm. I guess I can. :slight_smile: But, it is a friendly intellectual argument as it is my best interest to find the best use and recommend it to users. For the near future, without more data, we will have to agree to disagree.

Frank

22

Ken,

I am halfway between what you and Frank suggest…Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri, bike commute 30-60 min in the morning, 30 min in the evening on PC’s at the highest possible RPM that I can manage. Wed, 3 hour hard ride on conventional cranks, Sunday 4-6 hours also on conventional cranks. My results this year were good, setting bike PB’s across the board.

23

Dev, Frank, Ken, et al,

I thought I might chime in FWIW.

I have long been aware of PCs and thought them to be a gimmick of sorts, an opinion not based on actual experience with them.

This past summer, I was pondering training from years back, and I noted that I had some particularly strong bike performances after periods where I had practiced a lot of water running. Water-running as I practice it really stretches/strengthens the hips, and closely mimics the pull-back phase of the pedal stroke. Although I would be in the water imagining running, the mind/body sensations that came to me were more often specific to cycling, and I would draw on these when out on the roads cycling/competing.

Later this summer, I was reading yet another PC brouhaha on ST, where someone asked if single-leg pedaling could accomplish the same thing as the PCs. Frank Day answered in the negative, explained why, and then went on to say that the only exercise that mimicked PCs might be deep water running. Needless to say the curious timing had me become became more interested in the ever polemical matter of PCs—at least on ST.

Back to the present, I have now used PCs about a dozen times in the past 3 weeks. 20-40min sessions on the Computrainer at low wattage. Without a doubt, the PC sessions are helping me stretch/strengthen a hip flexor that is chronically weak and tight and a limiter of sorts for both bike and run. My PC wattage is still rather pitiful, as is my cadence speed and the time I can pedal before resting, but all of these have improved markedly almost with every session.

More importantly, my regular workouts have seen cadence and mechanics, especially as they relate to my right hip. get considerably smoother. Wattage for my sub-threshold sessions has spiked all of a sudden, and well beyond what I would normally expect and where I am pretty studied in these matters. Road sensations are similarly positive.

Considering my very brief PC experience and yet very notable changes, I am very excited about what the prospect of several months of training with PCs might produce, particularly where my current PC aptitude is woeful.

As for running carry-over, I have taken a 6 week running hiatus so I cannot report any marathon PRs out of the blue, but I confess to being all the more curious as to the sensations I will encounter.

In any case, I will be happy to share my experience.

Michael McCormack

24

Tried 'em beginning December 20-something, 2002. Could ride them perfectly fine at first…for 30-45 seconds at a time! Kept at it, and began to see running improvements very quickly…in weeks. That year, went from habitual MOP (started triathlons/duathon’s in the late 1980’s) to FOP in my age group. Set many run PR’s and bike split PR’s. Tied old TT standalone PR without any TT-specific training…on a rest day following a 3 hour excruciating PC training day a couple of days prior to the TT PR. Came in SECOND in a duathon…only guy to beat me was the state champion who is 12 years younger than me. Gradually rode them less and less, and my performances have steadily decreased. Run speed quickly decreased, along with an increase in injuries as I as trying to improve my run by running more. You could say, my performances slowed because of my injuries…I think my injuries increased because I was trying to run more than my body can take. Looking back, I’d say I gradually quit PC’ing because I wasn’t having as much fun working so darn hard. In the middle of all of that, I tried Rotor Cranks, and they were instantly like riding one higher gear…so, I started riding Rotors almost all the time: that free speed is quite addicting to me. Rotors are noting like PowerCranks…very little adaptation was required on Rotors. Don’t get me wrong: Rotors did work what they advertised to do…go faster at a given level of effort. Oh, did my first Iron Distance triathlon last year, and one common “rationale” was that THIS year would be much better because of all the long, slow training I did preparing for the long distance race, and I figured I could build on that base.

Didn’t work for me. I’ve been struggling most of the time since then. Maybe I’m just getting old. Maybe I’ll never get back to my previous days of FOP and PR’s. Maybe my body simply doesn’t respond to the Longer training required to successfully do an Iron Event. THEN AGAIN, maybe I’ll commit myself to getting back on the PC’s this off-season…and, that’s exactly what I’ve done. So, I’ll see if I’m simply all washed up, or if training on PC’s can resurrect my performance. Maybe I just need a higher rate of workload to get a good performance response. It’s a plausible arguement. But, I really don’t care if my performance increases are due to the PC technique, or the increased level of workload I get from riding PC’s. The proof is in the pudding…if it works, it works. I’ll know by March, 2006 if this works at all…like I said, I may just be all washed up. Or, I might once again kick most people’s tails like I did the first year I was on PC’s so much.

25

But, if I were allowed to participate, I’d say that I have set PRs in every distance, in all three sports, since I stopped using them.
Wow. So not using Powercranks actually helped your swim! I’d say that’s pretty damning right there.

26

I used them for 2 years Nov to May. Worked my way up to 6 hours of riding. Problem was they destroyed my cadence as I was never able to ride them well in the small chain ring except for huge climbs, that amounted to the same as riding the big chainring on the flats. In the 6 hours of riding, there are lots of downhills where I could not maintain pedaling as well. I suppose with even more effort than I invested I could have deveolped the ability to spin in the small chainring, but riding wasnt fun anymore. People say “its not suppose to be fun, its training” Well, I dont know who in their right mind would live this lifestyle if it were not fun. Running, I had my worse standup marathon, but then again I wasnt doing much running as all of my time was on PC’s. On a sidenote, the pressure of pulling up nonstop did some funny things to the ol bloodflow if ya know what I mean. That was the beginning of then end for me. Im glad I tried them. Good luck.

27

Dave,

I’ve told you my PC history before, but I will add an additional comment based of recent riding.

After duathlon nationals this year I deployed here and had no bike for four months. I did start riding an indoor bike in September for about 15 hours that month. Other than that I was only running. When my bike finally came mid-Oct. I was interested to see what the layoff would do. After about five pedal strokes I was back to normal and have been riding without issue for the last two weeks.

I have a couple of opinions now, based off this experience.

  1. Runners who are already doing a lot of miles will see less/little improvement to their run when they start riding PowerCranks.

  2. A lot of running might pre-dispose you to be able to use PowerCranks more easily in the beginning (muscularly speaking—your brain still has to figure out the coordination issue). When I started PCs more than two years ago I was still running fairly low miles. This time when I started up after the layoff I had run 120 hours in those four months and was able to start up fairly easily.

One addendum—I don’t have time to ride more than an 1:30 at once, so I have no idea if I have the muscular endurance for the 5-6 hour rides I was doing this spring.

Just FYI.

Chad

28

Have had them on my trainer for 10 months now where I average about 3 hours a week on them.

My cycling times have not improved (but I credit- or should I say discredit- this to the fact that I’ve done little time on the roads).

My run times, on the other hand, have improved dramatically. I’ve set PR’s in both the 5K and 10K. My training run times are also faster. I’ve check my training logs and my run mileage has not increased - if anything it’s probably a little lower.

All this and I’m also as heavy as I’ve ever been (about 15 pounds over my ideal race weight).

Would have to give credit to the PC’s.

29

I used them for 2 years Nov to May. Worked my way up to 6 hours of riding. Problem was they destroyed my cadence as I was never able to ride them well in the small chain ring except for huge climbs, that amounted to the same as riding the big chainring on the flats. In the 6 hours of riding, there are lots of downhills where I could not maintain pedaling as well. I suppose with even more effort than I invested I could have deveolped the ability to spin in the small chainring, but riding wasnt fun anymore. People say “its not suppose to be fun, its training” Well, I dont know who in their right mind would live this lifestyle if it were not fun. Running, I had my worse standup marathon, but then again I wasnt doing much running as all of my time was on PC’s. On a sidenote, the pressure of pulling up nonstop did some funny things to the ol bloodflow if ya know what I mean. That was the beginning of then end for me. Im glad I tried them. Good luck.

Your experience is way outside the norm, at least if you were using them adequately, which it would seem you were if you worked up to 6 a hour ride. Reports to me suggest that almost everyone who is riding them exclusively (or close thereto) is able to sustain cadences of about 85-90 rpm for 2 hours at the end of the first season (6 months) on them and almost everyone is able to spin up to a cadence of 130-140 for short periods (the highest I have heard anyone achieving is just over 200)

I would like to understand why your experience seems substantially different than most.

  1. How much did you train on them as a percentage of your total bike time when you were using them (Nov to May)? How many hours a week were you training then? How long was the average ride? How did you work up to that 6 hour ride? How long did it take? I take it that 6 hour ride (or any ride) was never “easy”, otherwise the “fun” would have returned, is this true?

  2. Did you ever work on trying to increase cadence? If so, what did you do? If so, what was the highest cadence you could get to without falling out of synch?

Frank

30

Back to the present, I have now used PCs about a dozen times in the past 3 weeks. 20-40min sessions on the Computrainer at low wattage. Without a doubt, the PC sessions are helping me stretch/strengthen a hip flexor that is chronically weak and tight and a limiter of sorts for both bike and run. My PC wattage is still rather pitiful, as is my cadence speed and the time I can pedal before resting, but all of these have improved markedly almost with every session.

More importantly, my regular workouts have seen cadence and mechanics, especially as they relate to my right hip. get considerably smoother. Wattage for my sub-threshold sessions has spiked all of a sudden, and well beyond what I would normally expect and where I am pretty studied in these matters. Road sensations are similarly positive.

Considering my very brief PC experience and yet very notable changes, I am very excited about what the prospect of several months of training with PCs might produce, particularly where my current PC aptitude is woeful.

Michael, I am surprised to hear that someone of your ability has, apparently, substantial HF issues and imbalances, especially in view of your prior use of deep water running as a training tool. I had come to the view that most of these imbalances are related to injuries and the development of compensatory patterns during recovery. Of course, these bad patterns will also make the athlete more prone to injury.

Do you have some history that can explain this problem? Is it recent or old? If it is old, can you explain why the deep water running didn’t solve (or, at least, substantially improve) it? One nice thing about the PC’s is these problems cannot be hidden from anyone, especially yourself. Compensatory patterns from weakness or injury cannot develop and if they have developed in the past, the PC’s will undo them and make things “right”. Perhaps this is one way of explaining why some adapt much quicker than others, the quick ones don’t have old inuries and compensatory patterns to undo and the slow ones do. What do you think?

Frank

31

Michael, thanks for your thoughts. Since some of us are all new on the PC’s, I look forward to having us compare notes to see if they really help us for next season. I continue to keep an open mind, but logically it sure makes sense they would improve skills, for the reasons you have posted. I plan to give them a 100% effort to see what happens. As you know, as we get older, we are not as flexible, etc., so anything that can help my running, let alone biking will be worth every penny. Have you given any thoughts about racing with them? I am considering getting some 200mm xlite cranks made with the locking mechanism. This way if for some reason I have issues racing, I can just lock them and make them ragular 200mm cranks. I might as well consider killing multiple birds with one stone.

Dave

32

So, what is your current thoughts on PC’s and when to use, vs the rotorcranks? I continue to try and gather what folks have done. I plan to do 100% PC’s on my trainer. But, for my race bike, I struggle should I use regular cranks, get rotor cranks, get PC’s, or could PCs and Q rings be used together? All the above needs to be in 200mm crank arm lengths which mades it tougher since this is non standard, and therefore, expensive to try.

Dave

33

Your comments are why if I get them for my race bike, I would consider getting the locking rings. There may be what is ideal, vs yes you must have some fun. So, I figure that maybe my Oly races using PC’s would be good, but on an HIM or IM, maybe it would be better to lock them at some point if needed. Would just give one the flexibility to do different things, and the extra weight I think is pretty small. I have lockable on my trainer PC’s which I do not use, but a friend who rode the velotron on Sunday did.

Dave

34
  1. How much did you train on them as a percentage of your total bike time when you were using them (Nov to May)? How many hours a week were you training then? How long was the average ride? How did you work up to that 6 hour ride? How long did it take? I take it that 6 hour ride (or any ride) was never “easy”, otherwise the “fun” would have returned, is this true?

90% was on the cranks, the remaining on a mountain bike. 9 to 12 hours a week. The three 6 hour rides I did were in late april early may.The 6 hour loop had a 14 mile climb, it was brutal! I just ran out of motivation to get myself to the point where PC’s became regular riding and I was not smart enough to learn how to swap them out with regular cranks myself.

  1. Did you ever work on trying to increase cadence? If so, what did you do? If so, what was the highest cadence you could get to without falling out of synch?

Only by gearing down and pedaling till the flexors got cooked, at that point, back to the big chain. Im not knocking PC’s at all…I wish I would have mastered them. But I sure love to spin at times.

35

Chad, I sure can tell I would need a lot more time on the PC’s before I could even consider a long ride as you talk about.

Dave

36

This is why, even though Frank does not recommend it, I got the locking mechanisms on the PCs I got for my trainer, and would get them on racing PC’s if I buy them. I would not want to get so upset trying to ride them that I stopped. Also, I have NO desire to have to change cranks. The locking on the PC’s works great.

Frank, I know you suggest one use PC’s ALL the time, but, as some have posted here, longer rides, and or hilling rides, and be so tough that one quits. So, I guess I am surprised you do not support the locks more which allow folks to have a choice as they are getting used to riding PC’s for longer lengths of times.

Dave

37

This is why, even though Frank does not recommend it, I got the locking mechanisms on the PCs I got for my trainer, and would get them on racing PC’s if I buy them. I would not want to get so upset trying to ride them that I stopped. Also, I have NO desire to have to change cranks. The locking on the PC’s works great.

Frank, I know you suggest one use PC’s ALL the time, but, as some have posted here, longer rides, and or hilling rides, and be so tough that one quits. So, I guess I am surprised you do not support the locks more which allow folks to have a choice as they are getting used to riding PC’s for longer lengths of times.

Dave

I discourage the lock-out because it is too easy to cheat. Most who struggle to get through those long rides soon find themselves able to do those long rides without difficulty (or, at least, no more difficulty than with conventional cranks) whereas, if they locked them out whenever it started to get difficult, they would never (or very slowly) improve. Now, if it means that riding is no longer fun, so they stop using them all together, then that is a different story, and the lock-out would be useful, because some time on them is better than none. Getting them without the lock-out is a psychological committment to them, which I think serves the athlete better in the long run, except for the occasional individual like dwillet who would have obviously benefited from the technology. Most who have made the committment to exclusive use are probably glad they went that way after 2-3 months, even though the first 6 weeks may have been a mental and physical struggle. If I did not make that recommendation, no one would do it, and I think our success stories would be much less numerous and dramatic.

38

Frank, I agree with you. But, if one has this on the “race” bike, it may be better depending on skill level on the PC’s to lock them for a long race. Other than this, the more the better. But as you said, some is better than nothing, which is why I would want the safety net of having the locks.

Dave

39

So, I figure that maybe my Oly races using PC’s would be good, but on an HIM or IM, maybe it would be better to lock them at some point if needed.

Dave, I don’t know how others are, but I tend to ride higher rpm for shorter races and lower rpm for longer one. I have raced Half-IM on PCs to good effect. As I have said before, I think the PCs allow you to maintain the same speed and spare your quads, thus setting you up for a good run. It certainly showed at all of my shorter races this spring, but I was not able to race at Half IM before I left because—unfortunately—our pool was closed all winter and there are no Half-IMs in SoCal after the March 19 race at Camp Pendleton/Oceanside.

Frank, I know you suggest one use PC’s ALL the time, but, as some have posted here, longer rides, and or hilling rides, and be so tough that one quits.

I have never quit a long ride, but I have wanted to cry a few times. It just makes you stronger. I’ll PM you will my average monthly saddle time leading up to the 6 hour ride I did in the first week of April this year.

Chad

40

Chad, great points.

Dave