Hello:
I just did a 40km TT on my computrainer and was wonder how “ugly” it gets for people when they are doing the last 15 or so minutes of the test? My cadence went down I was mashing on the pedals for all I was worth trying to hold onto the average power I had accumulated. For the record I had previously figured my FTP to be 282w using the 0.95*20 minutes on a 2% grade method and I actually got 278w using a rolling random less than 3% TT course I created just before the ride.
Thanks,
Ken
I do the 20’ x 2 for my ftp testing every week. One thing I notice is the wavering cadence through the second 20’. Definitely a suffer fest! The first 20’ are smooth as silk.
you do that every week? guess it is a hell of a work out…but pretty damn painful
I do the 20’ x 2 for my ftp testing every week
Why?
I do the 20’ x 2 for my ftp testing every week. One thing I notice is the wavering cadence through the second 20’. Definitely a suffer fest! The first 20’ are smooth as silk.
While this might feel/sound like a good idea, if you are truly doing a test every week when you do this set, you are likely digging too deep too often. This results in recovery which is too long. Do you see a progression on a weekly or monthly basis? If so, then perhap carry on. If not, then you should change your protocol, as it doesn’t seem to be working.
Right now, I’m only riding, so this is totally different from what a triathlete should do. I know I pay for an all out 20 minute effort for a few days afterwards. Two Sundays ago I did a test type workout of 20@ 359, 3:00 EZ, 20 @ 376. Monday had to be total recovery. Tuesday I rode hard but felt like crap (ie I probably should have rested). Wednesday very lite, Thursday was a tune up ride, and Friday was off. Saturday I raced and felt OK but not great. Legs didn’t come around until Sunday at another race. There is no way I could perform 2x20 @ (1.00 & 1.06) on a weekly basis! Much better dialing is back ever so slightly.
All-out test/race type efforts should be used sparingly, as they generally really hurt recovery. See what happens if you ride the intervals at a slightly easier intensity (ie .95 instead of 1.00 to 1.05). Your recovery will be better, and you will likely be able to perform more/additional quality work throughout the week.
Because it is working.
So is it working as a test where you are re-establishing your FTP weekly or as a workout. iow, the reason behind not the result of.
Both. You think this is bad? I ask this sincerely because I REALLY want to know what you think. I respect your opinion via previous posts from you I’ve read.
Thanks for the feedback Flanagan. I’m a few months into it and so-far-so-good as far as progression goes. I’m not swimming or running very much right now. I just want to get my ftp up up up!!! By the way, your ftp is very impressive!
FWIW, I’m also riding super easy one day and then a session with 45’ @ 90% of ftp the other day. Again, I see no reason to change until I hit a mental or physical plateau.
I agree with Flanagan and DD and would like to add that putting a precise number on your FTP down to the single digit is not necessary or possible. Round it down to the nearest zero and go from there. Makes the math quicker as well. Your FTP is 270 and that is damn good.
FWIW, the birth of my child, the death of my father, jumping from an airplane and the last 5 minutes of a properly paced and executed 20 minute test are the most intense and memorable events of my life. It’s way beyond ugly, in fact, it’s pretty goddamn beautiful.
A 40k time trial on a trainer is pretty hard to execute well. I know folks that do it, but I couldn’t. If at all possible, you might want to test outside also, since it’s not uncommon for power numbers to change in “real world” conditions.
fwiw, it does kind of sound like you “blew up” in the last 15 minutes of your test. That’s the benefit of the 20’ method, that it’s less mentally taxing
A 40k time trial on a trainer is pretty hard to execute well. I know folks that do it, but I couldn’t. If at all possible, you might want to test outside also, since it’s not uncommon for power numbers to change in “real world” conditions.
fwiw, it does kind of sound like you “blew up” in the last 15 minutes of your test. That’s the benefit of the 20’ method, that it’s less mentally taxing
One thing about the 20’ method is to make sure you have a full-on sustained effort prior to the 20 minute effort. IIRC, Coggan calls for a 5 minute blow-out prior to the 20 minutes. I like to do 20 minutes at what I believe my current threshold followed by a short recovery then right into the 20 minute test. Simply taking best 20 minutes and multiplying by .95 can lead to an overestimated FTP.
You don’t fully adapt to a workout or workout type as soon as it’s done. It’s the repetition and adaptation to doing a specific type of workout, like threshold intervals or vo2 max intervals, week in week out for a period of time that allows you to become faster. Looking for week to week changes in your FTP isn’t necessary especially since it takes 6-11 weeks to fully make those adaptations.
Don’t be afraid to mix it up, 2x20, 3x13, 7x9 for example and/or vary the rest period.
I have to wonder, and I guess only Alex can answer this, but doing that same workout week in and week out, it’s not really doing a FTP test every time. It’s more like he is doing the 2 x 20 as a workout each week rather then a test. As John had referenced AC and some of the warm up procedures before actually doing the test, I would venture to say that possibly Alex isn’t going through the full warm up protocal as recommended by AC. I could be wrong though, maybe he is.
But assuming that he is doing the 2 x 20 as his specific interval workout each week, I do see certain benefits to doing that. Naturally it is nice to mix it up as you mentioned to stress the body in slightly different ways, but for now since Alex feels that he is seeing improvements from week to week, it must be working, at least for him.
This summer I have been training a lot with a former pro roadie turned pro triathlete and while I don’t do every ride with him (he rides 6 days a week, I ride 4), part of our normal weekly routine is that on Tuesdays as part of a 40 mile ride we include 2 x 7 miles all out on a straight uninterrupted bike path. We then follow that workout up with an 80 - 100 mile ride in the mountains on Wednesdays. Then once a month instead of that routine I do the Wednesday night tri club 20km time trial and for me that is my “FTP Test workout”. The normal Tuesday 2 x 7 miles isn’t a test workout, it is just a workout. With this routine I have seen my w/kg go from 3.8 back in May to 4.1 as of today.
A 40k time trial on a trainer is pretty hard to execute well. I know folks that do it, but I couldn’t. If at all possible, you might want to test outside also, since it’s not uncommon for power numbers to change in “real world” conditions.
fwiw, it does kind of sound like you “blew up” in the last 15 minutes of your test. That’s the benefit of the 20’ method, that it’s less mentally taxing
One thing about the 20’ method is to make sure you have a full-on sustained effort prior to the 20 minute effort. IIRC, Coggan calls for a 5 minute blow-out prior to the 20 minutes. I like to do 20 minutes at what I believe my current threshold followed by a short recovery then right into the 20 minute test. Simply taking best 20 minutes and multiplying by .95 can lead to an overestimated FTP.
That protocol is Hunter Allen’s not Andy Coggan’s.
From riders I coach / have coached, I more typically see FTP =~ 0.88 to 0.96 * 20-min power, with the average at ~0.92ish. More often that not, 0.95 * 20-min MMP overestimates FTP.
As for doing threshold intervals at the max effort level for the duration, agree that it is not really necessary. You could do them at 95%, get almost the same physiological adaptation and be able to do them more often, accumulate more time at level overall and perhaps see a faster progression as a result. But the temptation to push hard usually overwhelms us. I do it too.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
I do my FTP testing on a computrainer. I used to do the 2x 20(2) but found it extremely difficult to hold a steady (correct pace) for 40 min. I then used the 95% at 20 min which worked well and allowed me to test more often without the kind of residual fatigue which would affect other workouts. Most recently I have used Chris Carmichael’s protocal from the Time Crunched Cyclist, which is after a prescribed warm up 2x 8 minutes all out within 10 minutes of recovery between the two sets. Take 90% of each set and the greater number is you FTP. I love this approach because again it allows me to dial in my numbers for my threshold and interval training without sacraficing other workouts. Carmichael makes a good point that the longer FTP test particularly indoors results in artificially lower FTP (e.g. mental fatique which has nothing to do with your power)- and thus doing your intervals and threshold workouts at lower then appropriate numbers. I agree with the prior posts that a weekly FTP test does not sound like a test but a weekly workout. I reset my numbers every 4 weeks with a FTP test-knowing I have that test is what pushes me through the tough intervals and threshold workouts.
I may be crazy, but one of my favorite workouts is 60 minutes at ~100%. I do it every 2-4 weeks depending on my racing schedule. I break it into thirds, and negative split it. i will hit the first 20 at ~15 watts under threshold, then try to cut that in half by the 40 minute mark without going too deep and hit the last 20 as fresh as possible. I love hitting that last 20 feeling strong and driving up the average. I often do the last 20 @ 5-10 watts over threshold. For some reason I like it even more when its raining.
Ding Ding Ding. Pretty much no warm up protocol going into this. I build up my effort from 0-10 min and then let the horse out of the gate.
I think its informative to track your weekly FTP workout watts…but like others have said…those are often a poor substitute for an actual protocol-driven test. My weekly FTP sessions are often less than well controlled with traffic interruptions, rushed execution, etc. After years of training with power, I do get a pretty good feel for what my fitness is doing from the weekly data…but I still try to do periodic testing, usually at a key point (or points) before A races. Sometimes I am surprised at what I can do when I’m well rested and well prepared physically AND mentally for the effort.
I agree with Alex that .95 probably overstates it (I see .88 to .92) and that doing an all out effort each probably creates too much waste (and thus longer recovery periods). Hey, if it’s working then stick with it, but I can’t help but think that something less than all out would produce better results over a given period (say…12-weeks) b/c you could do more work (workouts) due to the reduced recovery time.
Something I want others take on is cadence. When doing a field threshold test, do you do your tests/have your athletes do their test at a race specific cadence?
For example, if I was going to do a true, 20-min TT to determine my max avg power (for 20 mins and then take whatever % of it), I’d probably ride that 20-min, all out, TT with a cadence around 105rpm. Now imagine I’m training for an IM…there’s no way I’m going to average 105rpm for 112 miles…probably more like 79-83rpm for the duration of the bike segment. So the power I got from that 20-min TT is inflated b/c I ‘gamed’ the test w/ a higher cadence and thus, isn’t really applicable to the specific distance I’m training. Make sense?
That’s what I’ve observed in my training (and coaching)…curious for others experiences and what/if they’ve done to address it?