If I can sustain 250 watts on the flats, how much should I allow my watts to go up on a hill (i.e. 8 % grade for 2 kilometers)?
I am a little confused as to why 250 watts on a hill is much easier for me than 250 watts on the flats. Why is this?
I would say it depends on what distance you’re racing. I’d suggest that if you’re racing an IM then you want your VI as close to 1.0 as possible. Thus you’re going to have to hit the hills at you’re race watts. In other words your watts won’t/shouldn’t increase. HIM nearly the same just you’re IF will increase. OLY and shorter - Toss the wattage theory and blow and go.
I would say it depends on what distance you’re racing. I’d suggest that if you’re racing an IM then you want your VI as close to 1.0 as possible. Thus you’re going to have to hit the hills at you’re race watts. In other words your watts won’t/shouldn’t increase. HIM nearly the same just you’re IF will increase. OLY and shorter - Toss the wattage theory and blow and go.
At this point it is a question about training days. In racing I expect I’ll it dialed in by then. I am just curious if one sho9uld increase their watts about the average for teh ride while going up hills, and if so, by how much?
So a flat sprint or Oly and you stay at the same watts.
But just because a 25 mile race has hills you suddenly can push more watts overall. How is that?
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This is from personal experience, not scientific.
My FTP is 205 watts. During the Triple T, the shorter races I let my power go up to 250 watts on the climbs and rode near 175 on the flats and downhills. On the Half I let it go up to 230 watts on the long climbs and rode near 160 on the flats.
I ran well afterwards (for me).
Still wondering why it’s easier on the hills, maybe cuz it’s just for a short time.
jaretj
I am a little confused as to why 250 watts on a hill is much easier for me than 250 watts on the flats. Why is this?
Most people perceive the effort they are putting out by how hard they breath. I would suspect you might be over-geared when you climb versus your gearing choice on the flats. If you are over-geared, you’re switching more of the load to your muscular system, rather then your aerobic system. If the hill is relatively short (less then 10min to climb), you can manage that fairly comfortably. Your perceived exertion will seem less or easier because you haven’t stressed your cardio-vascular system.
Of course, if your gearing choice is the same as when on the flats (same cadence, same effort), then 250watts is 250watts and it should feel the same.
That’s my take on it.
“I am a little confused as to why 250 watts on a hill is much easier for me than 250 watts on the flats. Why is this?”
Aerodynamics, bike set-up.
Maybe you are a sail?
I’m not sure I understand your question. And I’m really really confused as to how you derived your question from my post.
If you’ll re-read you’ll see OLY AND SHORTER = BLOW AND GO = TOSS THE WATTAGE THEORY = GET ALL YOU CAN WHEREVER YOU CAN. Maybe you can clarify where you read what you’re trying to tell me I said?
THAT’S HOW!
I think what the poster was saying (and please correct me if Im wrong) is that for an olympic and sprint, you lay your cards on the table/put the pedal to the metal/balls to the wall/ redline it/whatever other colorful euphimism you might come up with. What it all means is that for the time that the sprints and olympics take, if you pace it, you arent going to win it…you either have what it takes to get the job done, or you go home with just the tee shirt and a dirty wetsuit. I would agree with this for a sprint race, but for an olympic, I think that there is some pacing that needs to be done.
Stephen J
How much power you use on a hill depends on your goals, the length and grade of the hill and how much anaerobic energy you have in your tank. If you’re time trialing and your goal is the best speed, you should plan on expending just enough power over what you can do on the flat so that you’ve almost exhausted your anaerobic reserves as you crest the top. Use the downhill to recover.
The longer the hill, the more likely that the best power to use will be very close to what you can sustain on the flat. Short hills can be attacked at relatively high power.
Unfortunately, there are many variables in the hill climbing equation: the length and grade of the climb, how much anaerobic energy you have in your tank, how quickly you can recover, and your overall goals for the ride. Each situation is different, and experience is the best guide.
I think what the poster was saying (and please correct me if Im wrong) is that for an olympic and sprint, you lay your cards on the table/put the pedal to the metal/balls to the wall/ redline it/whatever other colorful euphimism you might come up with. What it all means is that for the time that the sprints and olympics take, if you pace it, you arent going to win it…you either have what it takes to get the job done, or you go home with just the tee shirt and a dirty wetsuit. I would agree with this for a sprint race, but for an olympic, I think that there is some pacing that needs to be done.
Stephen J
Actually he mentioned nothing of distance. I still don’t understand your question to me in the original post. Maybe you weren’t actually replying to me I don’t know. There’s no time for pacing in an Oly.
For a hill less than ~1 minute, I try to stay under 105% of FT. For longer than that, I try to stay at my FT. For me, I would use this for a HIM or longer.
I do find when time trialling my average power ends up being higher on hiller courses than on flat ones by 10-20 watts. Maybe I just don’t try hard enough on flat courses?
1st you can do higher power up hill as your muscles work best against resistance, thats why the faster you go the harded it is to keep the power up ie going down hill
2nd your power shouldnt go up when riding up a hill, if you want to go fast then you should ride the whole course at a constant power even if it means you are going very slow up hill. The only exception is if you know the next section because for example is very technical or just to fast and you know you wouldnt be able to hold the power you could then push it up the hill and use the other side as recovery
there several things first bike postion ,second center of gravity the way you pedal crank lenght ,training standing on pedals (more force)
well you are in good compagny becuase pro’s cylist have the same
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1st you can do higher power up hill as your muscles work best against resistance, thats why the faster you go the harded it is to keep the power up ie going down hill
2nd your power shouldnt go up when riding up a hill, if you want to go fast then you should ride the whole course at a constant power even if it means you are going very slow up hill. The only exception is if you know the next section because for example is very technical or just to fast and you know you wouldnt be able to hold the power you could then push it up the hill and use the other side as recovery
THANK YOU!
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I am a little confused as to why 250 watts on a hill is much easier for me than 250 watts on the flats. Why is this?
As Polarbear said, it is very likely linked to heart rate. For a given power, a lower cadence results in a lower heart rate and this might lead you to think it is easier. If you keep the same position and same cadence you will perceive no difference in effort for the same wattage.
Francois in Montreal
This “constant power” theory is wrong and you can easily see it by using the calculators on analytic cycling or by experience. You get more “bang for your buck” by using power on hills (i.e., 50 watts over threshold on a hill might be the difference between going 10 mph and 15 mph, where on the flats it might give you 22 vs. 21). The exact level above threshold is a dicey thing to determine, and you have to consider your recovery time, length of the race, etc.
Good post and some great answers here.
1st you can do higher power up hill as your muscles work best against resistance, thats why the faster you go the harded it is to keep the power up ie going down hill
2nd your power shouldnt go up when riding up a hill, if you want to go fast then you should ride the whole course at a constant power even if it means you are going very slow up hill. The only exception is if you know the next section because for example is very technical or just to fast and you know you wouldnt be able to hold the power you could then push it up the hill and use the other side as recovery
I agree with the first part, the second part is flat out wrong. Increasing power slightly (like a previous poster said maybe 105% of FTP for a short climb) is absolutely faster when you take into account the downhill on the other side. Go to analytic cycling and put in some numbers for an average 4% climb at 250W both ways versus 300W up/200W down and you’ll see why.
WRT the OP, you’ll really need to try a series of higher output efforts to know the actual best method. What I mean by this is that it’s hard to make a generic judgement on what you should really do. For instance, my FTP is about 300W and I can hold 400W for about 4 minutes, but at that point I am way beyond LT and would have to softpedal at 100W or so for several minutes before resuming a normal race pace. It’s highly unlikely that I would do well in a race if I did that. However, I can hold 300-325W for a pretty long time (20+ minutes) as long as my rpm is in the 88-95 range, less if I am on a very steep hill and pedaling 70-80. If you are targeting 80% of FTP for a HIM race then you definitely don’t want to be substantially exceeding FTP at any point in the middle. For sprint and olympic I’d tend to agree that you should be pushing close to your power-duration threshold for most of the race.
As a direct example, I did an IM race pace (except for the brutal heat that slowed me down) 100 miler this weekend and rode at ~220W avg for the whole distance. My power on the hills was in the 240-275W range and that worked out well for me. If I’d been pushing to 300ish I’d have probably been in trouble later in the day, though of course I can’t say that for certain. Except for the dehydration factor I probably would have been fine for a 5-10 mile run, but not for a marathon! By October I hope to be comfortable at 220W for 5 hours with max output in the 300W range.