I haven’t seen the Passion of The Christ yet, and I’m not sure if I will, but from the clips I have seen I thought Mel went overboard on the violence. I thought that there was no way people would stand by and watch something so atrocious actually happen, then I saw what the mob of people in Iraq did to those contractors yesterday and I wanted to throw up. It makes me wonder if Mel’s portrayal of Christ’s last day is more accurate than we want to admit and also shows how barbaric people still can be. Disturbing.
We all have to understand that these are the same people that dug up Saddam’s son to feed to stray dogs. They don’t share the same kind of respect for life and the human body that our culture does. After being over there for a while you start to realize these people are centuries behind from the modern world. They may have cars and cell phones, but things like basic plumbing and safe drinking water escape them. These people still shoot guns in the air when celebrating weddings. They are like the Flinstone’s redneck cousins.
After seeing the movie, I have no doubt that it could have been an accurate portrayal of the violence. It is a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
I have promised myself I would go see the Gibson movie on Easter. I am not looking forward to it. I doubt the violence goes overboard. They had routine public crucifixions at those times for crying out loud. They were violent times. Your take on the atrocities yesterday is a good insight.
They don’t share the same kind of respect for life and the human body that our culture does. After being over there for a while you start to realize these people are centuries behind from the modern world
Like those guys in Texas who dragged that black man behind a truck until and after parts of him started to break off? Like those guys in Wyoming (?) who tied that gay man to a fence and killed him? Like the US being one of the few countries with a death penalty, where we strap someone to a chair and fry 'em with electricity?
These people still shoot guns in the air when celebrating weddings
Seen a Super Bowl/World Series/whatever celebration in the city of the winning team, where they turn over and burn cars, loot stores, and generally have a fun ol’ time?
What was the difference again?
Never underestimate the human capacity for cruelty. It is limitless.
I’m not saying that all Americans are great people that are above the horrible acts that you described. The world is full of sick people and I was just trying to help with some insight from someone that has been to Iraq, Afghanistan, and a whole bunch of wonderful third world countries.
I do believe that in some cases the death penalty is warranted. If I committed any of the above heinous acts you described I would fully expect to ride the lightning for my actions. If you are convicted of a crime that is punishable by death and your appeals are denied, then I say turn up the juice and see what shakes loose.
I wasn’t trying to offend anyone. I apologize if this hit a sore spot.
Don’t apologize for being right. This concept that only those individuals or societies that are perfect are entitled to comment on issues of morality is intellectually bankrupt.
Fact is…there weren’t hordes of people standing around and cheering on this vile behavior!!!..That is the true commentary on the barbaric nature of some 3rd world countries!!!..The hordes of people that condone the behavior of inhumane deviance of others…or at least stand idly by…
I believe you used more poly-syllabic words in that post than anyone on this forum unless talking about aerodynamics or Boyle’s Law. I salute you and yes I used spell check.
Be careful about making gross generalizations of a society based on the actions of a few. This is the mistake we made in VietNam and it cost us in terms of winning hearts and minds. I have seen pictures of Iraqis digging through Saddam’s mass graves with their bare hands trying to find the remains of their loved ones. They didn’t look like people who didn’t respect life to me. Most Muslims are not Islamists or Islamist militants. Winning the war on terrorism will require that the majority see benefit to aligning with us and not the militants.
My opinion on what is happening in Fallujah–We have not established control there. The majority of the population is still afraid of the Ba’ath. The Ba’ath have seen the videos of Mogadishu. They know we cut and ran after Mogadishu. This attack and its’ aftermath were all pre-planned events, hoping to get the same results. The fact that we are in an election year and there is significant internal discord over Iraq is not lost on them. Most of the citizens of Fallujah ran inside and shut their doors and windows when they saw what was going down. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. We have to establish control there, weed out the Ba’ath, and then the majority there will support us as they do currently throughout most of Iraq.
Art,
Ah, but he wasn’t just commenting, he was comparing:
“They don’t share the same kind of respect for life and the human body that our culture does”
I merely responded that there are individuals in our society who act the same, thus his comparison may not be accurate. I didn’t invoke the Stone Casting principle.
On that subject, just what did Jesus mean when he said “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7)? Not applicable here?
The hordes of people that condone the behavior of inhumane deviance of others…or at least stand idly by…
One doesn’t have to go very far back into our history to find plenty of examples of fine citizens encouraging, condoning, or not intervening in atrocities. Certainly happened in my lifetime. Who was that woman in NYC who was being murdered in an alley, and nobody within earshot did anything?
Note that Jesus was preventing the death by stoning of a woman accused of adultery. We aren’t dealing with adultery in Iraq, unfortunately. Note also that Shakes was not throwing stones, but words.
So, no, that statement does not apply here, at least not to Shakes. It is a terrific quote though, with broad application. I try to practice it. Sometimes, I even succeed.
The reason we were forced to “cut and run” from Mogadishu was an Executive Branch decision. Not long after the helicopters went down the 10th Mountain Division and several heavy units were brought in to restore order. The military pulled out because of decisions made at the White House.
I talked with a buddy over in the Green Zone last week and they are going back to using the Bradley Fighting Vehicles and some tanks on patrols in Iraqi cities. Nothing says you mean business like a smooth bore 120mm or a Bushmaster up top. It is only a matter of time, now.
As for my gross generalization, I suggest that you take a trip over there some time. There are a lot of great people over there like any country, but as a whole, their respect for human life as a society is not the same as what the majority of people in more advanced countries have.
I remember we used to have to pull bodies out of the river everyday that people would just toss in to get rid of them. And it just wasn’t people killed in the fighting. There were old people, kids, men, women all tossed in the river like drift wood. Products of in-fighting and old grudges. I’ve seen it first hand and still see it sometimes at night.
I try to avoid these topics as I am about as FAR from religious as one can get. However, I think that the mess people are making over this movie is foolish. I think that anyone who is willing to base their beleif in god - on a movie made by Mel Gibson, and HIS read on things as they were 2004 years ago is not wise. What is his point? Does Gibson want to be the next L. Ron Hubbard? Doe? (remember Heavans Gate?) Do I doubt that this Jesus fellow is who people think he is…no, I guess not. However, there is nothing telling me to believe it either. I guess I am just sick of hearing about the movie. I may rent it when it comes out on DVD…maybe not.
The reason we were forced to “cut and run” from Mogadishu was an Executive Branch decision.
Agree. And, the people there believe that if they could make us do it once, they can make us do it again.
“…they are going back to using the Bradley Fighting Vehicles and some tanks on patrols in Iraqi cities.”
As I said, we have not established control in Fallujah. As long as people can attack thin-skinned vehicles, and take out 3-4 at a time, they will keep doing it. This pattern displays to the sideline watchers that we are not in control. Whose side will they be on then? The one that appears to be winning.
“…I suggest that you take a trip over there some time…”
During my time in the Marines, I did spend some time in an Islamic country (not Iraq though). **(Turkey, actually, which until recently when Islamists began taking more control in the government, is a great model for an Islamic country with a secular government.) I did not get the impression from the Turks I worked with that they had any less respect for human life than Americans do. **
“…their respect for human life as a society is not the same as what the majority of people in more advanced countries have.”
**If all our system of laws and law enforcement in the US were to go away tomorrow (as it did in Iraq), I suggest you would find people have a lot less “respect for human life” than one might think we have. The worst of conditions brings out the worst in people. **
BTW, if you research all my posts here, you’ll find I’m no anti-war or anti-military zealot. I salute you for your service. But, let’s not forget the lessons of our past failures–one of the most glaring in VietNam was to misunderstand the nature of the people we were dealing with. The whole " no respect for human life" argument was made then, too.
but as a whole, their respect for human life as a society is not the same as what the majority of people in more advanced countries have.
Yes, someday Iraqis will learn to respect life like the United States does.
Lord help us when they do.
What I don’t understand is why people are so upset by yesterday’s events in Fallujah.
Some mercenaries were killed by Baathists and then mutilated by a civilian population they knew full well hated their guts.
They bet their lives that the risk was worth the 10-15k/month.
They lost that bet, they burned, they dangled.
Why all the anger?
“Freedom”, a wise man once said, “is untidy”
What is more troubling, from a strategic perspective at least, is that for all the bravado at the Green Zone Gaggle every morning, the Fallujans had plenty o’ time string 'em up, cut 'em down and drag them (via donkey cart) back towards town…looks like Baathists are big fans of the 12 division strategy for the 10 division Army.
I appreciate your input and your service, also. I enjoyed Turkey, but I was only there for a few weeks. I agree that given the present conditions, it will bring the worst out in people. Lets not forget the LA riots and that guy getting pulled out of his truck. What I was saying that my perception, and that of the majority of the people that I worked with, was a lower respect for human life. One guys opinion, not expert, just there for a time.
Thank you Shakes and Tri_bri2 for defending our country so that people like me can spend my time doing stupid things, like triathlons for example. We are in your debt.
You are welcome, now would someone please answer my post with some input on a new saddle. My ass is killing me and no comments from the peanut gallery about my ass.