Post 9/11; how Bush really screwed up

I’ve just come back from the movies. Went to see Fahrenheit 9/11.

Close to the start of the movie, there’s a few scenes of people standing in NY after the attacks, bewildered. My girlfriend was crying, as were quite a few people around the cinema. Now, for those of you who know nothing about me (most of you), I’m living in Australia, not in the US, so this came as a bit of a surprise to me.

Even after watching the whole movie, with its various different claims, what annoyed me the most was that after 9/11, almost every country on the planet was extremely sympathetic towards the US and willing to help, an empathy still evident in the movie theatre tonight. It was a unique chance, a chance for unity, a chance to work together. Bush has squandered that - instead of uniting, he has divided, and instead of embracing the genuine care and support the world was prepared to offer, he decided the US would pursue its own unpopular agenda.

That, to me anyway, is the saddest thing about the last 3 years - it’s not about whether Iraq was right or wrong, it’s not about oil, or whether Bush is in bed with the Saudis; it’s about a missed opportunity…

I’ve just come back from the movies. Went to see Fahrenheit 9/11. <<<

That’s funny so did I, mate, , "Croc Dundee " Ever seen it?

That’s about as relevant to world affairs as the one you just viewed.

PLEASE don’t tell me that Crocodile Dundee wasn’t an accurate representation of Australia!!! My long term dream to move there was inspired by that movie. I mean how cool is a country full of great triathletes and cool crocodile hunters! :slight_smile:

Chris

Not quite my friend. We asked, some helped, some appeased. America defends itself. End of story.

PLEASE don’t tell me that Crocodile Dundee wasn’t an accurate representation of Australia!!! My long term dream to move there was inspired by that movie. I mean how cool is a country full of great triathletes and cool crocodile hunters! :slight_smile: <<<

Yes I’m sorry, but, as we all know from WebSwim’s post, movies do tell the truth about world affairs. That is a proven fact.

Another worthy flick on Australian/US politics, Iraq, civics and world affairs is Kangaroo Jack. Never realized how smart those bloody roos are. They talk and can perfrom rap songs. A must-see for the informed citizen.

I haven’t got to view Croc Hunter yet with Steve Irwin, but I’m certain that will have some deep 911 meaning, too.

Well, the French and Germans had the chance to work toward unity too. But they decided to put their business interests with Saddam in front of fighting terrorism and combating evil. But, I am much happier with the Wehrmacht sitting out this war than with the Luftwaffe flying bombing missions in Bonsia. As far as the French go, their military power peaked a long time ago, during the reign of Louis XIV. If they don’t want to fight, let them stay home. If they don’t want to be allied with us, then we can buy wine from California and Australia, which might be the best ally that the USA has ever had.

It’s too bad noone wanted to actually adress your post. Instead people just want to make the most ridiculous comparison they can think of to make you feel stupid.

I think where a lot of Americans would find fault with your statements is in the idea that the rest of the world was still committed to helping us when we went to war. I think immediately after 9/11 we surely had a lot of sympathy and support worldwide. As we came up on the time frame for going to war, we seemed to have lost a lot of that good will, evidenced by some of the statements and actions of our allies (primarily France and Germany). Any President’s job is to look after his country’s own national interests. I’m not a big pro-Bush guy, but if he thought he was advancing our interests, and that the rest of our allies were going to stand in the way of that, then he had to follow what he percieved as the best course of action for the U.S. I think he probably felt like he got a little bit hosed by the UN, although I agree that his “with us or against us” policy was not the best piece of foreign diplomacy ever.

"As far as the French go, their military power peaked a long time ago, during the reign of Louis XIV. If they don’t want to fight, let them stay home. If they don’t want to be allied with us, then we can buy wine from California and Australia, which might be the best ally that the USA has ever had. "

I think General Patton said it best; " I’d rather have the German Army in front of me than the French Army behind me."

Cheers!

Trevor

“I think where a lot of Americans would find fault with your statements is in the idea that the rest of the world was still committed to helping us when we went to war.”

I agree 100%. This is precisely what I meant by squandered opportunity. The rest of the world was willing to help fight terrorism - apart from a brief foray into Afghanistan, Bush was more interested in going after Iraq, which, at the time, had no connection to al Qaeda and nothing to do with 9/11.

How far from St. Helena are the guns of Austerlitz? (might not be perfectly accurate as it is from memory).

Whether France was stronger militarily under Louis XIV or Napoleon is debatable. The Grand Army of 1805 was a good fighting force, but the French navy, even augmented by the Spanish fleet, was pathetic. Do the Battles of the Nile and Trafalgar sound familiar? In addition, all of Napoleon’s victories were ultimately short-lived. Despite the brilliance and heroism displayed at Austerlitz and Jena, the ultimate result of his conquests was Louis XVIII back on the throne of France, the country more or less reduced back to its border of 1792, and him exiled to St. Helena. Louis XIV was neither as great a butcher nor as much a failure as Napoleon.

But, the point of the post is not affected by whether France peaked militarily when the future United States was a colony of Great Britain or a independent nation clinging to the Atlantic coast. I, for one, would be perfectly happy if Germany stayed pacifist forever.

How exactly has France been fighting the war on terror? By refusing to allow US FB-111s to land on the bases that we built to protect France from the USSR because they were flying to bomb Libya? By bravely skimming profits from the UN oil for food program? Didn’t you learn on May 10, 1940 that appeasement does not work?

As an American I apologize on behalf of some of the idiots on this thread. Rather than answer the question, they’d rather throw the same platitudes and slogans out there. A lot easier than thinking about it.

But then, of course, simpler is always better, isn’t it? Much easier than recognizing the complexity of the situation and the various issues contemplated. Everything is easier when you make things simple - you’re either with us or against us - you’re either evil or good - you’re either for freedom or against it - and of course, we’re American, we’re never wrong or make mistakes, or for that matter, own up to it.

So again, I apologize, which I know is an unfamiliar pose for Americans. Some of us do understand that the world is more complicated than that portrayed above, and that the secondary American anthem is not “America uber alles”. We are the most powerful nation in the world, in no small part because of the admiration of other nations and the willingness of their best and brightest to come here and become part of it, including some partying Aussies. If we lose that, we lose something both measurable and immeasurable.

Thanks trio_jeepy.

Yesterday I wrote a couple of responses to the nonsensical comments, but went back and deleted them for two reasons:

  1. There’s no point arguing with people who still believe that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaeda

  2. Getting into a pointless discussion ultimatley detracts from the original point I was trying to make.

C’est la vie…

I I think many Americans take issue with the fact that there was at least some appearance that France and Germany backed off of Iraq because of oil concerns in the region. Certainly those countries have as much right to pursue their own national interests as we do, but it sits poorly with many Americans.

Only if you in the future agree to perhaps limit your criticisms of politicians to elements of substance, instead of proposing that a certain candidate must be a “poser” because he rides a Serotta. Obviously you’re desperate to aim quasi-character attacks at said candidate, for reasons only you know.

Ad hominem attacks like this only reduce your credibility, beneath the current level, of course.

In terms of Iraq/Al Qaeda, it’s more or less a litmus test of how people see and want to see the conflict, I believe.

If you wish to believe that they were in league together, despite the fact that the CIA, MI5, Mossad, and the 9/11 Commission dispute this vigorously, then you will believe it no matter what, as an article of faith. If you formulate your conclusions based on a wide variety of information sources, both journalistic and official government, not to mention the basic orthodoxy that a Muslim fundamentalist probably is not fond of a secular dictator who kills Muslims for kicks, then you might arrive at a different conclusion.

As for me, I initially supported the war, based solely on the notion that Saddam was a bad guy and needed to go. The WMD issue was a factor as well, although the purported Al Qaeda connection was still a backpocket theory at that point. What the right fails to see is that a lot of people are fundamentally disillusioned with the way the war has been fought - under a veil of pretenses, exaggerations, and manipulated information. It speaks to the core of what we define as “good government”. If the government lies to us (and I use the word “lie” liberally) for what it tells us is our own good, that is still a serious problem, because there is no arbiter of what is good or not - that is supposed to be our job to decide.

I think it’s been shown all over history and all over the world that government that is not reasonably transparent is corrupt government, subject to all sorts of agendas, compromises, and flat out malfeasance.

It was for these reasons, and frankly, the flat-out incompetence and rigidly ideological bent that I have turned against the war. Unfortunately, as Colin Powell has noted, we broke it/we bought it. Now the best choice of a series of bad choices is to stay and spend a lot of money and lives to stabilize the situation in some reasonable way, not only because it’s the right thing to do and the geopolitically smart thing to do, but it also represents the second largest oil reserve in the world.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.

Give me a break Francois, France and Germany’s contributions in Afghanistan are totally pathetic. They can’t even pull their own weight in Bosnia for crying out loud. France won’t help out in Sudan either.

Why doesn’t France get off its duff and send 100,000 troops to Afghanistan? They would be a big help, and the heavy lifting is already done.

It will be amusing to watch France tell Kerry to shove it should he get elected. It is almost worth voting for him just to see that. France’s strategy my entire lifetime has been to oppose the US. That isn’t going to change, no matter how well the US president grovels.

Yes, these countries were all behind us on 9/11 until such time as they were asked to actually do something. Then the story changes.

How about if Chirac writes a personal check to Iraq for the amount he and his ministers skimmed from the oil for food program? It won’t bring the dead children back to life that he killed with his thefts, but it would be a start.

“skirt the issue”

In my reading of my post, nowhere does it suggest or state that I speak for all Americans, as the point is, that I am speaking for a particular segment.

I would never purport to speak for you. Believe me.

And frankly, I could give a crap about what you appreciate.

I think trio_jeepy’s use of the phrase “As for me,…” probably indicated that he was speaking for himself and not for you.

Francois - it probably won’t surprise you to hear that I’ve been to France three times. I can still remember the sound and smell of the ocean during a locomotive change outside of Montpellier on the way from Barcelona to Lyon. Or the quiet plazas in Lyon during midsummer, and the food, of course. The TGV to Paris. Berthillion ice cream on Ile de la Cite. The Louvre and the Jardin des Tuileries. Not to mention the Musee d’Orsay. Really a remarkable place of great beauty, especially if you’re operative in French.

That said, I won’t be nearly as abrasive as AJFranke in my criticisms of France, which I suspect you share. My sense is that France, like many countries, is in the midst of serious change - mostly about who it wants to be when it grows up. What I mean is that I think France is more or less where England was about 15-20 years ago. Both are countries which were in the past so strong as to have influence all over the world, and have more or less lost that. If you remember, 15-20 years ago England was trying to redefine its role in Europe and basically remain relevant. It survived and became the financial center of Europe.

I think France is in the same position today. It needs to rediscover what it does well, its core competency, and attract talent to exploit it. Unfortunately, it has some issues. It still maintains a somewhat larger than necessary public sector which has become sclerotic. I remember when I studied the language, learning that the highest scoring students on the baccalaureat were intended to become bureaucrats. This adherence to a large public sector is probably no small explanation for why much of France’s talented students end up here or in the UK. Another issue is that of its 60 million people, about 10% are Muslim - disproportionately poor, unemployed, male, and pissed off. While it represents a major political problem, it represents an even bigger potential public safety issue, as fundamentalism spreads in the absence of hope. That said, I wouldn’t want it to become the country of LePen, either. I can still remember a France which defined “French” as being anybody who spoke the language, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Unfortunately, as France tries to find its role, I think the wide perception, largely backed by truth, is that it has defined itself by opposing the US. While this is in itself irritating, I think it pisses people off more when they consider that for most of the second half of the twentieth century, a large part, if not the majority, of Western Europe’s defense budget was paid by the US, in the form of NATO and direct bases. So for France to pursue policies in contravention of ours, I think, represents to some an insult.

I like France. Its contributions to democracy and culture are numerous. However its endowments on mankind, it still needs to figure out what it wants to be when it grows up. It has talent and assets - it just needs to figure out how to capitalize on them. It can’t try to cling to importance by being a roadblock - it should aspire to be a place people admire, not dread.

It reminds me of a classmate from Strasbourg in graduate school. He grated on me by insisting that Americans had life all wrong - all work and no play make Johnny a dull boy. He may have had a point, but he refused to acknowledge that he was pissing into the wind. Unsurprisingly, he stayed here after grad school, because I guess France didn’t present enough opportunity.

My comments irritate you because they are largely true. The Oil for Food scam is true and Chirac and France stole billions. Iraqi children died for want of food and medicine. Chirac stole money as the mayor of Paris, and only stays out of jail by using his immunity. That is just the kind of person he is.

You get irritated at the suggestion of sending 100,000 troops to Afghanistan. Why wouldn’t France do that? They think they are a major player on the world stage. They think they should keep their permanent seat on the Security Council though any of a dozen other countries would be more appropriate members. Yet you suggest that spending 9% of what we spend on our relatively insignificant spending in Afghanistan constitutes an appropriate burden on France.

Why not compromise? Send 25,000 troops to the Afghanistan/Packistan border and flush out UBL for us. Now that would be a contribution. France won’t do this though, because they want to save money on defense and on air conditioning for their elderly so they can spend money on education. Nothing wrong with spending money on education. I hope France does this more intelligently than the US. Just stop pretending to be a player on the world stage if those are your priorities.

I guess I like your Aussie half a lot better.