Possible IM swim improvement and what's required?

All right, sure this is a partially idiotic question that is probably best answered by “it depends”. But indulge me for a minute and weigh in if this is a goal worth pursuing.

Me: former FPOS and way former collegiate runner/rower, now just somewhat fat. Swam a 1:24 IM swim split a while back and more recently a 37:24 HIM split. Neither felt like a hard effort but I recognize how the effort/time thing works in water. Carving another 7:24 off that, then going twice as far…is it possible or likely with one, two, three years of effort? Am I still in the sweet spot of the curve where a year or two of focused effort (masters swimming, coaching and OWS group 3-4x) could make me a passable (1:05 or so) swimmer? I am late 30s, heavy chest and shoulders build with long limbs. Think skinny orangutan.

I wouldn’t have asked this question after that IM split five years ago but the half has me thinking a bit…I exited the water feeling great, maybe warmed up but definitely could have pushed a lot harder. And yeah, higher priority is getting leaner as it will help everywhere.

Ok so if the answer is yes to the above, what’s the process? Coaching and tech? Lots of work? Drills?

How to Swim Faster
http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/How-to-Swim-Faster.htm

I have this talk every few months with athletes new to swimming. They ask: “How do I get faster?” I usually give them a generic answer—and then a specific one.

The generic answer is: dedication, persistence and consistency. That goes well on a poster board for a motivational speech, but hardly gives you a plan of action. People want specifics!

The specific answer is: technique, training time (volume) and workout structure (intensity). You can view these as a triangle. Technique goes at the top because without at least a moderate amount of good swimming technique, training time and workout structure will only help a bit.

To illustrate, imagine someone who barely understands front crawl or freestyle. He can swim every day (high volume) with detailed workouts with varying effort intervals (good structure). This will improve his overall cardiovascular fitness and muscular strength. But this swimmer will quickly hit a limit on improvements to speed because of poor technique. In swimming, it is very easy to use a lot of energy and make very little forward progress.

I am sure some of you reading this have already figured that out.

Swimming Technique
Without at least decent swimming technique, you will always be limited in your ability to go fast for longer distances. This is an absolute. By decent technique, I mean that more of your energy is directed to moving you forward rather then pushing you backward, to the side, underwater, etc. Teaching yourself reasonably proficient and better technique is difficult but not impossible, especially with the advent of free movie websites like YouTube (search swimming technique), as well as more thorough instructional videos.

However, I strongly recommend finding a local swimming technique coach who can film you and then provide specific recommendations on what you need to improve. Your local masters group also may have a good coach on deck who is willing to spend a few minutes during practice giving you personal feedback.

The details of swimming technique are complex and beyond the scope of this article, but the two fundamentals are: a good forward reach or extension phase and a powerful, technically correct catch and pull phase. Without these two fundamentals driving your stroke, you will need a great kick to be fast. And kicking uses a lot of leg energy, which is not good for triathlon racing.

Volume
Don’t be scared, I am not going to suggest you start swimming twice a day, five days a week. Not unless you’re planning to swim in college, that is. For triathlons, and to see improvement in most working adult age-group triathletes, three times a week is what it really takes. Four or five swim sessions per week are even better if you are serious about becoming a faster swimmer. But I am aware that time is at a premium, so you should follow a plan that is realistic.

Two times a week does not cut it. Athletes who come from a strong swimming background can get away with this as a way to maintain most of their form and a lot of their speed. However if you are new to swimming, you are going to have to put more time into it than they currently do.

The person you are watching swim laps effortlessly at a fast pace at your local pool has put hundreds of hours into the pool, and you are witnessing the end result of all that work.

That’s at least three times a week, and ultimately, you want each session to be an hour or more (roughly 3,000 yards or meters). You can ramp it up in the winter when it gets cold, and you are not spending long hours on the bike.

Remember, this article is about how to swim fast, not how to swim, period!

Structure
Jumping into the pool and swimming laps until you’re tired or bored just became how you used to swim. You’re now going to graduate to structured workouts, like real swimmers use. Almost every swim workout you do should be structured, and each week should include workouts that target various systems like an aerobic workout (longer), a muscular endurance workout (mid-distance and moderate hard).

The exceptions to pure structured workouts are steady open water endurance swims or non-stop simulation swims in the pool, and those are structured in the sense that they’re included in the top-level organization of your training.

A typical swim workout should include the following components (example provided)

10-15 percent easy warming up (4x100 easy on 20 seconds rest)
10-20 percent drills and kicking (8x50s as alternating 1 drill, 1 kick on 15 seconds rest)
40-70 percent main set (6x200 on 30 seconds rest or 12x100 on 15 seconds rest)
Optional additional drills
5-10 percent cool down (100 easy)

The main set is the meat and potatoes of the workout. Each main set should have a specific training goal: endurance work (longer swim intervals), speed work (short, fast intervals) or muscular endurance work (medium length intervals at moderate-hard effort levels).

If you’re training for an Ironman, doing nothing but long, slow intervals will prepare you to swim—albeit long and slow. Short and fast will help you become a faster swimmer, and that speed does flow through to longer distances in swimming.

Very nice, thanks, seems like a really clearly laid out process and lots of resources too. Question #2 answered and then some! But is it in the realm of reason to go 1:05 for a non fish, very average guy? Have others done it ie posted a dead slow time then worked to the upper middle of the AG pack?

How to Swim Faster
http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/How-to-Swim-Faster.htm

I have this talk every few months with athletes new to swimming. They ask: “How do I get faster?” I usually give them a generic answer—and then a specific one.

The generic answer is: dedication, persistence and consistency. That goes well on a poster board for a motivational speech, but hardly gives you a plan of action. People want specifics!

The specific answer is: technique, training time (volume) and workout structure (intensity). You can view these as a triangle. Technique goes at the top because without at least a moderate amount of good swimming technique, training time and workout structure will only help a bit.

To illustrate, imagine someone who barely understands front crawl or freestyle. He can swim every day (high volume) with detailed workouts with varying effort intervals (good structure). This will improve his overall cardiovascular fitness and muscular strength. But this swimmer will quickly hit a limit on improvements to speed because of poor technique. In swimming, it is very easy to use a lot of energy and make very little forward progress.

I am sure some of you reading this have already figured that out.

Swimming Technique
Without at least decent swimming technique, you will always be limited in your ability to go fast for longer distances. This is an absolute. By decent technique, I mean that more of your energy is directed to moving you forward rather then pushing you backward, to the side, underwater, etc. Teaching yourself reasonably proficient and better technique is difficult but not impossible, especially with the advent of free movie websites like YouTube (search swimming technique), as well as more thorough instructional videos.

However, I strongly recommend finding a local swimming technique coach who can film you and then provide specific recommendations on what you need to improve. Your local masters group also may have a good coach on deck who is willing to spend a few minutes during practice giving you personal feedback.

The details of swimming technique are complex and beyond the scope of this article, but the two fundamentals are: a good forward reach or extension phase and a powerful, technically correct catch and pull phase. Without these two fundamentals driving your stroke, you will need a great kick to be fast. And kicking uses a lot of leg energy, which is not good for triathlon racing.

Volume
Don’t be scared, I am not going to suggest you start swimming twice a day, five days a week. Not unless you’re planning to swim in college, that is. For triathlons, and to see improvement in most working adult age-group triathletes, three times a week is what it really takes. Four or five swim sessions per week are even better if you are serious about becoming a faster swimmer. But I am aware that time is at a premium, so you should follow a plan that is realistic.

Two times a week does not cut it. Athletes who come from a strong swimming background can get away with this as a way to maintain most of their form and a lot of their speed. However if you are new to swimming, you are going to have to put more time into it than they currently do.

The person you are watching swim laps effortlessly at a fast pace at your local pool has put hundreds of hours into the pool, and you are witnessing the end result of all that work.

That’s at least three times a week, and ultimately, you want each session to be an hour or more (roughly 3,000 yards or meters). You can ramp it up in the winter when it gets cold, and you are not spending long hours on the bike.

Remember, this article is about how to swim fast, not how to swim, period!

Structure
Jumping into the pool and swimming laps until you’re tired or bored just became how you used to swim. You’re now going to graduate to structured workouts, like real swimmers use. Almost every swim workout you do should be structured, and each week should include workouts that target various systems like an aerobic workout (longer), a muscular endurance workout (mid-distance and moderate hard).

The exceptions to pure structured workouts are steady open water endurance swims or non-stop simulation swims in the pool, and those are structured in the sense that they’re included in the top-level organization of your training.

A typical swim workout should include the following components (example provided)

10-15 percent easy warming up (4x100 easy on 20 seconds rest)
10-20 percent drills and kicking (8x50s as alternating 1 drill, 1 kick on 15 seconds rest)
40-70 percent main set (6x200 on 30 seconds rest or 12x100 on 15 seconds rest)
Optional additional drills
5-10 percent cool down (100 easy)

The main set is the meat and potatoes of the workout. Each main set should have a specific training goal: endurance work (longer swim intervals), speed work (short, fast intervals) or muscular endurance work (medium length intervals at moderate-hard effort levels).

If you’re training for an Ironman, doing nothing but long, slow intervals will prepare you to swim—albeit long and slow. Short and fast will help you become a faster swimmer, and that speed does flow through to longer distances in swimming.

Yes its absolutely possible…but you better be putting up lots of time in the pool. Masters is a good way to go.

Hoping to do just that. Other super slow swimmers make the jump to near fish-hood?

Very nice, thanks, seems like a really clearly laid out process and lots of resources too. Question #2 answered and then some! But is it in the realm of reason to go 1:05 for a non fish, very average guy? Have others done it ie posted a dead slow time then worked to the upper middle of the AG pack?

Yes. In 2000 I had not swam more than splashy splashy style in years. Did my first sprint tri’s backstroke. 2002 did IMFL in 1:19. Focused over the winter, did IMCDA 7 - 8 months later in 1:08. Surprised the crap out of myself walking up the beach after the swim when I looked at my watch.

I’ve been coasting on that improvement ever since. :slight_smile:

Nice job!
and could not agree more with the ‘technique’ post–volume works running (for me anyway) but not swimming…have a friend who will not take a lesson, loves to swim, swims at least 5 hours a week! and is super slow…but happy, just doesn’t care!
A masters group would be ideal—I also took quite a chunk off my IM time…

Very nice, thanks, seems like a really clearly laid out process and lots of resources too. Question #2 answered and then some! But is it in the realm of reason to go 1:05 for a non fish, very average guy? Have others done it ie posted a dead slow time then worked to the upper middle of the AG pack?

Yes. I am a MOP open water swimmer which makes me a FOP Triathlete. My swim time for Vineman was 59:40 which was pretty good. I swim ~15k per week getting in 4 workouts per week. So yes it is possible. It just depends on how consistent you keep at it (it took me about a 2 years to get to this spot)

Cool guys, really encouraging. Now that I am old I am a bit gun shy of lost causes. Not much time to spend fooling around anymore. If iit’s never gonna happen I’d rather just build a monster bike and run split back up and forget scrounging for twenty minutes. And yes, I am getting infected with the KQ sickness though for me it’s a five year plan.

I swam 1:17 at IMLP and 1:20 at IMLou on 2-4k yards per week. Since I’m not going to win or KQ and don’t care about those 20 minutes and don’t really like swim training, I’m perfectly happy with that. I think you need 10-20k per week to swim 1 hour. If that’ll get you a KQ then go for it, otherwise staring at the black line sucks and I’m not going to do it any more than I have to. Cheers.

I swam 1:10 in my first Ironman with only 20 weeks of swimming 3 times a week for an hour and a half ~3-4km. One year later swam 1:02 doing pretty much the same. It pretty much all came down to consistency and improved technique. Expecting to be able to get that down around 57-58 simply by focusing on technique, not necessarily doing drills for the whole session, just focusing on it every stroke.

Heavy on the technique and on-deck instruction from a very good coach. Get filmed if you can. The filming really opens your eyes and it’s not pretty! I swam 1:10 for my last 3 Ironmans and I think a weekly 4k swim is the way to go. Just get your body used to the distance and pacing. Long course 50 or 100m is preferable for that. 1:05? Yes, you can do it. Concentrate on swim for about 20 weeks straight with 4-5 swims per week. You need yardage to make gains. Good luck!

If a 1:20 swimmer worked hard to get to 1:05 or 1:10 and then stopped swimming for 6 months, would they completely regress to 1:20 again, or would you expect them to land somewhere in the middle assuming they spent a few weeks getting back in form?

Sort of like a 1hr 10ker who gets down to 40 - they can stop running for a long period and while they’ll get slower (45, maybe 50) they are unlikely to revert back to 1hr+ barring abnormal weight gain or an injury?

If a 1:20 swimmer worked hard to get to 1:05 or 1:10 and then stopped swimming for 6 months, would they completely regress to 1:20 again, or would you expect them to land somewhere in the middle assuming they spent a few weeks getting back in form?

Sort of like a 1hr 10ker who gets down to 40 - they can stop running for a long period and while they’ll get slower (45, maybe 50) they are unlikely to revert back to 1hr+ barring abnormal weight gain or an injury?

Not totally sure but I think a level is reached where some folks just never slow down below a certain point in the water. I think if you get good enough and the stroke is refined, then it becomes a matter of fitness. I know that my swim times can abate backward but only to about 1:30/100 yd; whereas, in the past, they could slide back pretty far. I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t slow down much below 1:30/100 yd but when I’m in great swimming shape, I can bang out 1:18/100 all day, or about 2k worth :slight_smile: So, at a certain point, one’s swim stroke is somewhat perfected and then fitness enters the equation. Makes sense?

I swam 1:17 at IMLP and 1:20 at IMLou on 2-4k yards per week. Since I’m not going to win or KQ and don’t care about those 20 minutes and don’t really like swim training, I’m perfectly happy with that. I think you need 10-20k per week to swim 1 hour. If that’ll get you a KQ then go for it, otherwise staring at the black line sucks and I’m not going to do it any more than I have to. Cheers.

Hopefully I have a shot. Putting together my all time bests, adding time for pacing, transitions, age and fatigue gets me there…with not a lot to spare. But running the marathon that gets me a KQ after a 1:20s swim is a bit daunting. Good to know there are options worth my time.

If a 1:20 swimmer worked hard to get to 1:05 or 1:10 and then stopped swimming for 6 months, would they completely regress to 1:20 again, or would you expect them to land somewhere in the middle assuming they spent a few weeks getting back in form?

Sort of like a 1hr 10ker who gets down to 40 - they can stop running for a long period and while they’ll get slower (45, maybe 50) they are unlikely to revert back to 1hr+ barring abnormal weight gain or an injury?

Depends what you did when your not running or swimming. If your on the couch eating potato chips, then yes you’ll regress alot. I’ve been running only token amounts since april or so and have done a few running races recently and come in within sight of my PR’s.

Swimming is more technique driven so provided you swim enough initially to get the muscle memory in place you shouldn’t regress all the way back to where you started. Provided your technique is actually what drove the improvement, anyway, if you got to 1:10 simply by flailing really hard then don’t expect much if you stop for any length of time.

And yeah I know there is more involved than adding up you best stand alone times and calling it within reach. But reversing that, if I don’t have at least the speed stand alone it’s notgoing to hAppen period. I’ll do more hand wringing about that in another post when I have another year of training done.