I cant seem to post the picture on ST but here is the link. I have already lowered the aero extensions. An I seem a bit high in the front? What do you think?
http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=2793529e-65d5-4733-65b2-3f055a202634&size=lg
Thanks alot. I have Explorer, I have advanced editor checked in my display settings and still no little mountain??
Anyway I really appreciate the help Kraig
It looks like the measurement point on your upper leg is off - it looks like you’re measuring from somewhere in your gluteus muscles. You want to measure at the bony portrusion on the lateral part of your upper leg (greater trochanter). You can find it easily by raising your right leg to the right and putting your finger where the joint is. When you relax your leg you’ll feel the bony portrusion. This is your greater trochanter, and that’s where you should measure your hip angle (I just put a little piece of tape on my shorts at that spot so that I’m able to find it in my photo). I’m guessing that if you do that, you’ll find that your greater trochanter is a bit lower than where you have your hip angle marked (I think it’s probably about 1" above where the red and blue lines intersect in your upper leg in the photo). Correcting this will likely show that your hip angle is very obtuse, thereby causing you to be a bit high in front.
The first thing that strikes me is that you look high in the front. You could easily get more aggressive unless you prefer riding that way. Is your seat at the 74 or 78 degree? I also agree with jhendric that you’re not measuring from the greater trochanter.
Don’t have time now but later I’ll print off your photo and do measurements. Realize though that this isn’t always accurate
The seat post is in the forward position with the tip of the saddle 5cm or so infront of the bb (I’m not sure what angle that is). I think your right about the trochanter I had trouble deciding on where to put the line given the black shorts. Next time I will mark myself befor I take the picture.
Thanks.
This page will tell you your approximate effective seat tube angle based on saddle height and position over your bb (http://www.cervelo.com/tech/articles/fit-article1.html). 5cm in front of your bb seems pretty steep - but check it out and see where you fall on the graph.
Also, if you look really closely at your pic, you can find your greater trochanter - look just above the intersection point of your blue/red lines on your upper leg. You can see the light/shadow change where your g. trochanter is.
It looks like you could flip your stem upside down and get your front 3 cm or so lower. I would try that and see how it feels.
Wow thats to the point.
I was actually measured for that bike by Enduro sport in Toronto (FIST) so I think that the frame is the right size. My challenge is that there are no experienced fitters where I am from so I am hacking around on my own. I realize from the picture that I need to go lower in the front but do you really think that the bike size is wrong?
I’m 5’11 of average proportins and that is a 56cm Dual. Endurosport suggested that or a 55cm P2k. Thanks for the input but perhaps you could be a bit more constructive? Afterall I just got my new bike pssssssssssssss(the sound of my balloon bursting)
My humble opinion is that your bike is the right size, but I would say that based only on what I see here, your seat is too high. It might not be, if you are a natural toes-down pedaller. I would also say that your bars are too high relative to your seat, but OTOH the camera wasn’t quite level, so I could be wrong. I also don’t know how flexible you are, so you might not be able to get any lower.
But… Giving advice on bike fit based solely on photographs is a bad thing, IMO. The problem is that photos are static, but when you pedal, your body moves. (Glaringly obvious, I know)
What is important is that when you are pedalling the bike, regardless of cadence, you can get maximum power for the effort, your upper body is quiet, you can stay in an aerodynamic position, and things don’t hurt in the wrong places. You know you have the saddle height correct when your hips don’t rock side to side (too high) and you don’t bounce in the saddle (too low), and neither the front nor the back of your knees start to hurt. What you look like in a photo is a side effect.
IMHO, there is no question that the bike is the right size. It’s hard to do a fit over the internet without seeing you pedal, but I would lower your saddle (maybe by 1-2cm to start) and lower your bars by the same amount. I would try a flatter aero bar position and see how it feels.
Most importantly is how do you feel in your current position? You haven’t told us what your goals are. Are you uncomfortable? Feeling a lack of power? Just wanting to be more aero? Racing Ironman? Sprints? Experienced? First time aerobar user?
These are all relevant factors to consider before anyone suggests you need to lower your bars.
I’m glad it’s the right size. Endurosport sized me in 2003 befor there were any Duals available for open sale. Infact I was able to see the prototype while it was in your store.
I will be doing international distance races. The current position is comfortable. I’m not sure about power because I am in Winnipeg and have only ridden on the trainer but as far as I can tell it’s ok. My goals are to improve my average speed for an oly to 33-35km/hr (prev average around 30km/h on a road bike that I was not comfortable on)
When I was setup (Waypast Fast) in edmonton. The fitter had my seat a bit lower but I felt like it was to low so I raised it a bit. Maybe I shouldnt have.
Anyway I appreciate the time everyone takes giving their comments.
Tonight I plan to lower the bars a bit and see what that does.
Rip,
I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you over how to fit someone based on a picture but…
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I wouldn’t doubt that Logan’s saddle will be lowered more than 1-2cm, but I said that would be a start. Without addressing pedaling technique there’s no reason to do too much too quickly.
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Having a forward saddle position is IMHO not just for someone who is “mostly a runner” (why you make that assumption and furthermore make recommendations on that assumption without asking and questions about Logan’s situation is a mystery to me) but I don’t see any direct problem with his saddle fore-aft.
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Exactly how low do Logan’s bars “need to be”? I don’t know that and I don’t see how you can know that without more information. Having said that, now that we know his goals are to increase his average speed 3-5 km/h and be more comfortable, I would recommend lowering his bars by 1-2cm more than he lowers his saddle. It is unclear how many spacers are under the stem but probably 3 or 4 and flipping his stem down would provide another 5.5 or 6cm (assuming a 100-110 stem length). Even if Logan ends up with a flat stem and no spacers that would provide a lot of potential for a low position.
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Last, on the subject of frame size, if you accept the forward saddle position the stem length is quite reasonable at 100-110, to go down to the next size down would require a stem of 115-125 which IMHO is getting too long for a forward position set-up. Could Logan have gone with a 54cm. Probably, is there a compelling reason to do so? I don’t see it.
Why are you second guessing the shop that assessed Logan’s needs and did the fit with him in person? There will always be differences of opinion is fitting, but in this case I don’t see why you should undermine Logan’s confidence in his new bike. A few tweaks and a better understanding of the issues and he’ll achieve his goals and enjoy his bike.
I posted in another thread about how we try and educate our clients so they understand why they are set-up the way that they can further refine their position as they get more experienced/flexible/fit/competitive. It also allows them to decide which comments regarding their position they want to look into and which they want to let slide.
Rip, I’m not saying your opinion is not valid. I’m just saying that it can’t be stated absolutely and that going too far in this case is not constructive.
I think the frame size is fine. He just has his seat and bars too high. That’s all. Unscrew a couple bolts, move some stuff, problem solved.
Thanks for the input Rip but I think Dan is right.
In the picture there is 5cm of spacers and the saddle could go down up to 13cm. The seat is only 3cm infront of the BB not 5 as I originaly estimated.
Since reading all of the advice I have flipped the stem around and lowered the seat 2cm as well as tipped the base bar a bit down from where it was.
I havent tried it yet but I think that this will be progress.
Unfortunalty we all dont have easy access to good (or any)bike fitters.
Waypast fast intentionally set me up like this because I was concerned about being comfortable.
I was told at the time that I would have to do some tweaking to get more aero (he mentioned flipping the steam and lowering te seat). so after riding for several months like this I figured it was time to start tweaking so that I could get comfortable in a more aero postion by the time I get to take my new bike for a spin.
Thanks
If you can, take about 3cm worth of spacers from beneath your stem as well. Post some new pics so we can see where you’re positioned.
“Waypast fast intentionally set me up like this because I was concerned about being comfortable.”
here’s a newsflash: unpowerful is uncomfortable. happily, powerful happens to also be aerodynamic if you’re riding a steeper seat angle, and nobody ever says, “well, i can’t generate as much power, but i’m more comfortable!”
everybody knows the feeling of hitting your thighs against your stomach, and not having leverage over your hip extenders, when your hip angle is too acute. on the other end of this, however, are the firing patterns of hip extenders. get the hip angle too obtuse and you only fire quads and hams, and the glutes don’t get into the game. this is why it’s imperitive (for example) for those with steep bikes to never sit up when climbing. you immediately lose use of your gluteals.
a shop is not doing you any good by raising your front end to make you more comfortable. it ought to be rotating your entire body complex backward, or else finding a way to allow you to ride that steeply more comfortably, through finding you the right saddle/seat pad combination.
another poster very astutely pointed out that the apex of the hip angle you draw is situated way north of the greater trochanter, giving you the impression you’re forming a more acute hip angle than you really are. that’s losing you power.
the story i just told you would’ve been told you by mark kaltenbach at the OTHER way past fast in calgary 
I’ve just printed off your photo and done some measurements. I believe your camera was not centered perfect but based upon my measurements I get your knee angle at exactly 150 degrees. This is just about right for most people which is an indication that your seat is at the right height. If you have tight hamstrings you might want to lower your seat to about 145-147 degrees. Slowman likes his seat height at 155 degrees which would mean elevating it slightly, but i think he might have posted somewhere that he now prefers the 150 degrees that he runs on his road bike. So IMO at least based upon these measurements, your seat height is correct.
Another way to get approx seat height is the LeMond method where you measure your inseam in sock feet, book under crotch and measure floor to book top. Multiply by .883. Use this measurement from center of BB to top of saddle. Should be about the same as the 150 knee bend on the photo, within a few degrees.
To get your approx frame size multiply your inseam by .67. Everything in cm of course. According to the Cervelo site they size their road bikes and their tri bikes the same so this method should work fine.
You’re too high in the front unless you have low back issues. I don’t know why Endurosport set you up like this. Drop some spacers out, keep the 90 degree bends and repost more photos but with the camera more centered.
I’ve got a similar dilemma with my postion.
I’m working with a road bike, but that’s as good as it’s going to get, as I don’t have the budget for a new 78 degree tri bike.
Anyway, I have the seatpost reversed and forward, and things look pretty good, except I think I need to be down another cm or 2 in front. There are spacers in the headstack, but if I took them out, I would have to cut down the fork. I’m already struggling with saddle pain and numbness in the front groin, and I’m afraid rolling more down and forward to get more aero is going to increase this. Is it worth the risk, before I start cutting up my bike?
One more thing, I point my toes down a lot, more than this rider. I can’t seem to stop it, and it conseqently makes my saddle measurement look too high. Should I just be happy or lower my saddle and try to train my calfs to slacken up?
“Slowman likes his seat height at 155 degrees”
i prefer 150 degrees for road and tri (give or take a few). i do believe saddle heights ought to be slightly higher for tri bikes than for road bikes, but i believe the knee angle should be the same for both. i mistakenly thought higher saddles on steeper bikes necessarily meant greater knee angles, but on further examination that’s not usually true.
keep a couple of things in mind when considering the knee angle in the photo. first, he’s reaching with his toes, and i would question whether this is necessarily his usual pedaling style. second, it looks to me like the crank is closer to 6 o’clock, not at true bottom dead center.
there are some ways to tell on the bike whether your seat is too high. i think the best way is to go ride that bike about 70 miles, and see if it feels to high during the last 10 or 15 miles, when you’re really whipped. that’s a good time to readjust your seat height to what seems appropriate.
" There are spacers in the headstack, but if I took them out, I would have to cut down the fork."
why can’t you just put the spacers on top of the stem and leave your steerer uncut?