Longtime lurker.
Have been putting this off for awhile now.
Fire up the comments and let 'er rip.
Hard to say from that pic, but bring that saddle forward and those bars back you look really streached out.
Yeah, I agree with TI. I think if you move the seat forward you should be able to get rid of any spacers you may have too. Looks like you can probably get a lot lower without losing (in fact probably gaining) comfort or power.
move the saddle forward, and probably drop the bars a little. but move the saddle forward first, before you do anything else. as others said, you’re too stretched out, and probably too far back. moving the saddle forward fixes both of these problems. if this makes your tender spots uncomfortable, the position is not to blame, the saddle is to blame. that’s the one new purchase you may need to make.
so I’m wondering, would you have the same advice for this rider here? Too stretched out? Too far back?? (never mind that her wheels are too big!).
I think the OP’s position looks pretty good–though I’d suggest a new helmet.
obviously so. but here’s the problem with shorter folks: they’re biased against by a male-centric and not very intelligent UCI, and here’s the dirty little secret. while their TT bikes are rolled up to the commissaire’s jig, and they all pass, the road race bikes are not rolled up to the jig and many of them would not pass (rule 1.3.013). all of these gals have the ME available to them, but most are not sophisticated enough in their knowledge to ask, or the commissaires in their areas are not well schooled enough to grant it.
nevertheless, there is no excuse for that position, and that rider is giving up seconds over 40k, and maybe minutes. i have no doubt that it’s a reasonably aero position, but it’s the sort of position that needlessly sacrifices 30 or 40 watts.
nevertheless, there is no excuse for that position, and that rider is giving up seconds over 40k, and maybe minutes. i have no doubt that it’s a reasonably aero position, but it’s the sort of position that** needlessly sacrifices 30 or 40 watts**.
on the demand side or the supply side?
supply side. maybe tom a. will comment on this.
–though I’d suggest a new helmet.
Damn. And I was glad to see someone else using the LG Chrono. 
Interesting, because the rider in the photo has put out her highest power, over every duration from 20 to 60 minutes, on her TT bike–despite that fact that she only rides the bike in competition, and one or two trainer rides over the winter. IOW, your claims about ‘30 watts lost’ are, well, ridiculous…
I’m not sure why you mistakenly think the position is a power suck though? Because her saddle is behind the BB? Because of the excessive reach?
As far as the aeroness of the position, it’s consistently in the .018 range +/- .0005 over a variety of courses, so I’d have a difficult time thinking how she could be more aero by slamming her seat forward and dropping the front end…
besides the helmet, you should maybe consider trying out the Cobb ‘rule of thumb’ thing with your arms, i.e. moving your hands up in the ‘15 degree arm angle’ range.
Also, it’s hard to tell but it almost looks like your arms are wider than your hips. If so, you may experiment with moving your elbows in a little bit. When you move your arms up, do it in front of a mirror and see what changes your hand position does to your shoulder width. While there aren’t a lot of hard and fast ‘rules’ with positioning, in general the more narrow your shoulders, the better.
Obviously, I don’t think you need to move your saddle forward–unless you (potentially) want to ride slower…
I think I 'd agree on this one, for both. Your friends elbows, while narrower than hips are still pretty wide. Has she experimented with that, and with seat angle, or is it more of a , this really works well and is comfy why change, kinda thing?
I’ve previously been a pretty firm believer that back was better for myself, as it felt much more powerful, as in I could feel all of the leg muscles straining at the same time. Sine I got a PM last fall, I have discovered this not to be the case. My power is easier to sustain more forward than I had thought, especially going uphill. Of course, I had already given up on the UCI 5cm rule since I can pass the ME test at 1cm back.
“the rider in the photo has put out her highest power, over every duration from 20 to 60 minutes, on her TT bike”
so say you. either this claim is just flat out false, or she doesn’t know how to ride a road bike, or she doesn’t actually race in that position or she, alone (well, along with you) have the magic new paradigm that no other world class racer possesses.
the rearward position was strictly done for aerodynamics–to increase the reach while maintaining a UCI legal position, which is an issue for her. She’s trained w/a PM for a long time, so there’s a lot of historical data. It doesn’t affect her power either way, though she’s more comfortable in the rearward position.
As far as elbow width, moving her elbows in has an odd effect of making her shoulders pointy and flare out–which is why I suggested to the OP to be cautious with moving the elbows in. She’s probably going to mess around with elbows in and hands up, but it’ll require a new aerobar to test out.
“the rider in the photo has put out her highest power, over every duration from 20 to 60 minutes, on her TT bike”
so say you. either this claim is just flat out false, or she doesn’t know how to ride a road bike, or she doesn’t actually race in that position or she, alone (well, along with you) have the magic new paradigm that no other world class racer possesses.
well, I have about 4 years of power data to bear out what I’m saying. If you’re really curious, I can send you some files.
the position photo is, well, from a race—not a static position photo?, so I’m not sure why you’d suggest that she doesn’t actually race in that position (it’s actually at the end of the race, BTW, when a lot of the other racers are coming unglued…).
As far as a ‘magic paradigm’, I don’t really understand–and you never answered the question, so I’ll ask it again: what about her position makes you think her power would be compromised?
I hate it when people post on here with no agenda other than to be argumentative.
I hate it when people post on here with no agenda other than to be argumentative.
I hate it when people make declarations that there’s a ‘correct way’ to do things when there’s no real evidence to support the claim…
Shoulders…I understand, fortunately for me, my shrug is coming along, and is easier extended like your friend, well almost. :0
“you never answered the question, so I’ll ask it again: what about her position makes you think her power would be compromised?”
sorry, i never noticed you asking me that particular question about that rider. the problems are twofold: first, you need a column (upper arm) at no more than a right angle to the torso, or else you’re not resting your upper body skeletally, you’re holding it up muscularly. you’ll see that right angle in every one of these athletes, and it’s a common theme with top time trialers as well. this is not a power problem per se, but as the ride progresses ergonomic problems become power problems.
second, her hip angle is severely restricted, and this is a power problem. if that obtuse angle measured thru FIST landmarks is less than 97° (perhaps 95% of an extraordinarily small crankarm is used); or if it’s less than 45° of closed him angle using Retul coordinates, it’s very hard to generate power from TDC.
now, maybe i’m wrong about her. but if i am it’s because she’s an extreme outlier, and in this case, in a forum like this, i don’t see the value in picking outliers and holding them up as models to emulate.
“you never answered the question, so I’ll ask it again: what about her position makes you think her power would be compromised?”
sorry, i never noticed you asking me that particular question about that rider. the problems are twofold: first, you need a column (upper arm) at no more than a right angle to the torso, or else you’re not resting your upper body skeletally, you’re holding it up muscularly.
I'd suggest that give a more rearward position (such as the young woman in the photo, and the OP's position as well) that most of the weight is on the saddle, so that there's pretty minimal 'holding up the body muscurlarly'
second, her hip angle is severely restricted, and this is a power problem. if that obtuse angle measured thru FIST landmarks is less than 97° (perhaps 95% of an extraordinarily small crankarm is used); or if it’s less than 45° of closed him angle using Retul coordinates, it’s very hard to generate power from TDC. this seems pretty individual, IME. Some riders can hit their chest with no power drop, and I agree that’s unusual. That said, the OP’s rearward position isn’t nearly that closed on the hip angle, so I don’t see the need for the OP to necessarily move forward to reduce hip angle.
now, maybe i’m wrong about her. but if i am it’s because she’s an extreme outlier, and in this case, in a forum like this, i don’t see the value in picking outliers and holding them up as models to emulate.
I disagree. There’s very little weight on her arms, so it’s a position that could be ridden for long distances with little discomfort. I haven’t measured her hip angle but I just don’t think it’s as extreme as you suggest (her knees are not hitting her chest), and with 20mm more rise on the front end I have no doubt she could comfortably ride for an IM distance event (since it’s all about IM). The position is an ‘outlier’ in terms of what’s commonly seen, but I think that’s more because people haven’t experimented with a similar position. Note, I’m not suggesting this is the ‘right way’ either–but I just don’t get automatic suggesting to the OP to move forward.