Pose method of running. (1)

Triathlon Forum
21

So to answer my question, no, you have never tried it and you have no practical experience working with it. k-thx… The mere fact that you opened your mouth as an authority on the subject is what I find most troubling.

My first year in this sport I didn’t and couldn’t improve because I spent so much time nursing injuries. My cycling and swimming improved, but not my running. In my second year, I knew running was my limiter, I switched to the POSE style of running and and have taken nearly four minutes a mile off of my time and I run long with no issues.

So if you need studies, come knock on my door. I’m your real life case study.

You come off as a guy that sells Trek and badmouths Giant - without ever riding a Giant. Believe it or not, the two running styles can coexist. This isn’t a one-size-fits-all world. You’re 30 years coaching experience doesn’t mean shit if you can’t adapt to new training philosophies or even consider/accept them. I wonder how many people you needlessly sent off to the orthopedist because you weren’t willing to consider POSE as a viable alternative.

If heel striking caused me hip pain, knee pain, and ultimately a plantar fascia tear, what would you have liked me to do differently? I tried, arches, heel cups, and ultimately orthotics. I tried every conceivable shoe. Finally I gave up and I looked for alternatives and rationalized that my running style was the issue - not my body (or shoe selection). Funny how things worked out huh?

I walk into my local running store and I swear I’m in an orthopedic ward with all the people that are either injured, recovering from injuries, or wearing inserts and orthotics. I truly pity those people. Running is fun for me and of the three sports it is the one I enjoy the most.

22

Ah, the Pose method resurfaces yet again …

Chuck - I’m glad midfoot landing worked for you since it sounds like your biomechanics were pretty sh&^ty to begin with.

I also worked about with running mechanics in a lab with cameras, force plates, NCAA div 1 athletes, etc. myself, and perhaps 1,500 patients. I’ve commented here and other places as well re: this “method”, but all I really want to say is that the true Pose method is not NATURAL running form. Yes, Pose runners still wear the heel of their shoes out. Yes, the Kenyans heel strike (and so does Hunter Kemper :)). It IS normal and perfectly natural to spend less time on your heels the faster you run. Watch a sprinter - now that is Pose! The slower YOU (and this varies for different people) run, the more “heel time” you get.

What causes people injuries is trying to adapt to whatever (i.e. Pose) at a 9 min/pace and just changing the injury patterns (I know, I’ve seen hundreds). Pounding around your heels can also lead to injuries (knee, hip, joint aches). So many of us try to emulate the pros - some of this is good, like swimming, but if I tried to keep my elbow up like Grant Hacket, my shoulder would be doomed in a month :slight_smile:

Ah heck - enough of this before I start climbing high on my soapbox

23

Doc

I will ask you the same question I asked Barry. What do you think of Evolution running by Ken Mierke. It sounds like POSE running style?

24

Yeah, along the same lines. A little common sense mixed with science and you get yet another training approach (but you have pay more of course). Would likely benefit a pretty gifted, natural runner for 10K and under races.

25

Doc

Thanks send me the bill.

26

I’m certainly no expert on running, but I think some of this is a matter of your level of experience when starting out. Someone who has run a long time probably already has decent mechanics and doesn’t need Pose or Evolution Running or whatever. A year or so ago, I was a truly horrible runner with awful mechanics and I clearly needed some sort of help. Ken Mierke’s book helped me a lot because it made me think about and improve my mechanics in a way that was pretty easy to do. I’ve seen myself on video recently, and I know I still don’t land on my forefoot. But my weight is further forward than it used to be and I’m not jamming my heel into the ground nearly as hard as I used to. I’m sure Ken wouldn’t consider me the paragon of Evolution Running, but reading his book made me a better runner in a hurry.

Again, I’m not saying Mierke’s book is for everyone or that it’s the only or even the best way to improve (and I don’t know a thing about Pose, so can’t comment on that at all). But for me, someone with crappy mechanics and no real running background, Ken Mierke’s book helped me a lot to be able to run more comfortably almost immediately, which allowed me to run faster and a lot more often.

Anyway, I just wanted to present another view to show that, like a lot of things, this debate is not necessarily as black-and-white as people sometimes think. YMMV.

-Bill

27

Longboarder,

 I can't answer for certain.  I haven't read the other book. 

 I think I read on a running forum that roughly 50% of "good" runners land on their forefoot when racing a 5k.  As stated before, most runners move back to the heal when they run slower.  I have seen a few elite marathoners run on the balls of their feet. 

 I recently heard a good analogy.  Total Imerssion swimming is "POSE in the pool."  People with good mechanics shouldn't need it.  The problem I have with it is presented with a used car salesman type of approach.  I don't personaly believe that EVERYONE is meant to be a forefoot runner.....especialy over long distances or when running relatively slow (most triathletes don't get up to speeds where I think forefoot running would be beneficial). 

 As someone whose studied a little dynamics (I'm a mechanical engineer) I think there are many many factors involved.  *I've* never felt comfortable moving to my midfoot unless I am running at least 4:40 per mile pace.  Despite the fact that I have rediculously long legs (36" inseam), my stride length is similar to everyone else running at the same speed (if we all run at 90 rpm, then our stride length must be the same).  Therefore, my stride does not "open up" nearly as much as someone with shorter legs.  In other words, my legs open up as much at 4:40 pace as theirs might at 5:15 pace.  Well....now you are talking about the pace that SOME people can run a marathon at. 

 Anyway, I'd tried midfoot running for about 4 months and it just didn't work.  There's alot of BS in the POSE method.  One is the claim that heal runners are "breaking" when they land.  I've got news for you, the point where your bicycle wheel meets the ground is going zero miles an hour at that instant.  I've seen people who run on their midfoot who actualy scrape the ground as they land.  The foot will actualy kick the ground and "break."   

 Midfoot and heal landing have nothing to do with "breaking."  It all depends on how your foot lands.  You want to be upright and land with your hips over your feet.  The foot should cycle through, come in front of the knee, and then begin coming back before it lands.  It really should behave like a wheel.  If you are a heal striker and you over stride, you will land with your foot in front of you and it will act as a break.  If you are a midfoot runner and you lean forward, your foot will kick the ground before it gets full rotation.

IN SUMMARY, run tall, arms relaxed, elbows at 90 degrees, do NOT cross your torso with your arms, don’t bob your head, and make sure your feet land directly below your hips.

28

Now the studies are there<

What is STUDIES??? Is it some kind of Absolute Truth? You running for 31 year, have you been reading different studies over those years too (how about low fat diet that made this nation producing it) Who was making those STUDIES?

I’ve been working with Nikolas Romanov for over a year back in 95-96 and shaved 4 minutes in 10k (from 36 to 32) in that period. Can run 2:50 in any Ironman (2:49 in Kona) and I not considering myself as a pro, just fitness training. No injures. This method could be complicated to fully understand, not enough if you just read few articles on it. You need a hole picture, I learn a lot for that year working everyday personally with him, learn a lot in later years and still…

I’ve been running with Paula Radcliffe - even that she doesn’t call it Pose, but it’s same and it’s hard to argue with 2:15h marathon even if my results doesn’t impress you.

We can talk just for ourselves here - it may work for me and don’t work for you… but I think that you miss a lot from that knowledje

29

I engaged Ken in some debate on this topic on the forum a while back. Based on the discussions I had with him, I don’t think too much of him as a coach/writer, since he failed to grasp some very, very basic concepts that I presented to him. BUT, I do think that one part of Evolution Running makes sense in a way that Pose does not. I have worked with Dr. Romanov (founder/“inventor” of POSE) on two separate three day workshops, so I think have some good knowledge of POSE. What always seemed to be lacking to me in POSE was the engagement and usage of the hip extensors. If you watch any of the very fast 10K runners, there is a definite active use of the hip extensor muscle. I got in several debates with Dr. Romanov about this. If you ever meet him, you will see that trying to have a discussion with him is like trying to get the entire Lavender Room to agree on something. Impossible. But Evolution Running does recognize this active hip extensor engagement.

As far as what is natural, I don’t really know. I think I am a natural mid-foot runner, and POSE helped me to refine that. Even with long and slow runs, I still don’t weat out the heels of my shoes. I had been using the Brooks T4. After 400+ miles on two pairs, the midfoot was worn through so much that there were holes in places. On the heel, you could still read the word “BROOKS” stamped into the heel.

I think there is a lot of value in POSE method, for runners of all abilities. Hunter Kemper talks about training POSE method, yet clearly if you look at photos of him running, he appears to be a heel striker (I say appears because all the photos I’ve seen have him with leg extended looking like he is about to land on his heel, but I’ve never actually seen any of him with his feet on the ground with the heel striking). But when he talks about the value, he talks about relaxing, checking his body position, and allowing gravity to assist him. He NEVER mentions how he lands on his feet. And I think this is the real value in POSE, or in any of these methods, if you can relax and, to use a non-scientific word, “flow” with your running, you’ll be better off. Running and cycling both have technique. Swimming is not the only technique sport. And I think POSE is great because it gets people to think about how they run, something many people never do.

At the core, most of the running methodology books seem to be the same – don’t “brake.” However you achieve this, this seems to be the real lesson. As much as you can avoid slowing yourself down, the faster you will go.

I’m not really interested in the forefoot/midfoot/heel debate or which muscles are used here and there. The Noakes study is interesting re: knee loading, but for most athletes, going F-A-S-T without injury is what is important. And if they can get there doing what they do, I doubt they will change. If the top runners can’t run fast, they don’t care how much longer their knees will hold out, since they won’t have anything to hold out for. It’s like Paula Radcliffe’s head-bob. Sure it might save her a couple seconds to fix it, but how much time will it cost having her thinking about it?

POSE focuses on strong hamstrings (most triathletes seem to have excessively dominant quads, probably from so much biking), relaxation (no slowing yourself down, especially downhill), and technique in general. And I think THAT is of value to everyone.

Like PowerCranks, a past “hot topic” on this forum, most of the detractors have ZERO experience with what they are bashing, preferring instead to cite all their years of doing things their way as a reason for something different to not possibly work.

POSE helped me, and it has helped other runners, so maybe it can help you. Unlike TI, which I hammered for what I considered some serious technique flaws, I do not believe that POSE method has any fundamental flaws. It does, however, have some failings (hip flexor engagement being my #1), which is why I would not say that I run pure POSE method. Of course, I know I am biased because POSE did help my running, whereas TI hurt my swimming, so I will aways be more willing to overlook POSE’s failings. That’s just human nature.

30

This Pose method of running is a bulls@$t** **!! Look at the top distance and track runners running 400 meters and above, no one runs effectively on there toes. Except of course if you are running barefoot like Zola Bud or a 100 meter dash.

Just run more and feed your body the proper nutrition it needs and you’ll get faster. Forget all those gimicky suck shoes like - Nike Free, Nike Shox, etc. Just put up more miles, including tempo and track workouts. There is NO QUICK FIX, YOU’VE GOT TO TRAIN MORE.

Get a shoe that is specific to your particular running gait, some good electrolyte sources and a recovery drink and hit the road.

Terry Harth - Owner of a Retail Running Shoe Store
Triathlon World
triathlonworldusa.com

31

POSE helped me, and it has helped other runners, so maybe it can help you.
The funny thing is that you don’t run according to the Pose method, so how do you feel it has helped you?

32

Jordan

I have Ken’s video. I got some good tips such as quick foot turnover, running relaxed, don’t brake, as you said “flow”. As for the foot strike thing I try not to heal strike I kinda land mid foot.

I sent Ken an email and asked him if POSE and Evolution running were the same he never got back to me.

Thanks.

33

But when he talks about the value, he talks about relaxing, checking his body position, and allowing gravity to assist him.
Help me out here. If your center of mass is not above the point your feet hit the ground, you will fall over (unless you are accelerating). So if you lean forward, you don’t get a gravity assist, it just means you have to move an equal amount of mass in the other direction (e.g. if you lean your shoulders forward, you have to move your hips back). So doesn’t this whole attempt at getting a gravity assist just mean you are running with your a$$ sticking out?

34

Help me out here. If your center of mass is not above the point your feet hit the ground, you will fall over (unless you are accelerating).

And that’s the Pose method. It’s like controlled falling. You let gravity pull you forward and your lower body just keeps up with it, like a wheel. The key is that there is no active push off or launching. You just lift up your foot using only your hamstring. If you’re leaning forward at all, you’ll start falling forward. Then you let your foot fall naturally forward and come under support. To go faster, you lean more.

I was pretty skeptical at first. But when I learned how to do it I was amazed at how different it felt from my normal running style.

Roscoe

35

Please clarify:

“It’s like controlled falling. You let gravity pull you forward and your lower body just keeps up with it, like a wheel.”

This sounds like what happens when you are running downhill, but how does this work on flat terrain? In order for gravity to exert a pulling force, you have to descend.

36

Think about it this way. Stand up. Now lean forward. Eventually, you will land on your face. Gravity got you there. Now, stand up again. Lean forward again–but this time, pick up a foot and place it in front to catch your fall. You’ve moved forward using the same force that put you on your face the first time–gravity.

It really makes great sense the more you think about it. You use gravity for propulsion as much as possible, working with it instead of against it, as you do when you heel strike and then leap forward.

It’s kind of fun to run good Pose method up a steep hill, because you are actually falling up, in a way.

At this point, you’re probably saying, “but what gravity brings down, the body has to bring up again in order to permit the next fall.” This is, of course, true, but the Pose theory is that the rebound happens pretty automatically using natural muscular elasticity. So, the only activity you consciously direct is the pulling up of the feet.

It’s hard to convey all of the components of Pose in a post! I highly suggest the book, or at least check out the web site.

Roscoe

37

“At this point, you’re probably saying, “but what gravity brings down, the body has to bring up again in order to permit the next fall.” This is, of course, true, but the Pose theory is that the rebound happens pretty automatically using natural muscular elasticity. So, the only activity you consciously direct is the pulling up of the feet.”

Before I get into this let me say that I’m not opposed to the pose method. It doesen’t have to make sense as long as it gets results. But if a theory is difficult to explain in clear and concise terms, you have to question the logic behind it.

Back to what you said I’m probably thinking. I understand the concept of rebound, and i see how you can save energy in that manner, but you still need to apply some force to keep moving. The rebound is only going to occur in an up and down direction. Lets say you drop a ball. Each bounce will get progressively shorter and shorter and it will eventually stop bouncing unless you apply an additional force. That is because of energy loss due to friction (no perpetual motion in the real world). The more elastic the ball, the less energy you lose with each bounce.

Now what about horizontal motion. I believe they talk about maintaining a slight lean of the body. You certainly would be “falling” when your position changed from purely vertical to a slight lean. If the lean remains unchanged, you’re not really falling. Let’s say you had a crane on wheels, and the long arm of the crane was leaning north. If the gravitational force were great enough, the crane would tip over. If I understand the Pose theory correctly, gravity would make the crane roll north.

38

Let me raise a couple of points. You say:

“But if a theory is difficult to explain in clear and concise terms, you have to question the logic behind it.”

I disagree. Parsimony may be valuable in a theory, but it should never come at the expense of fully capturing the phenomenon it describes. More complex pheonomena, with many components and complex causality, require more complex theories. Take a look at string theory!

In any event the Pose theory is not all that complex. There are really only eight parts: the pose; free falling; alternating poses; the wheel concept; muscular elasticity; rapid stride frequency; doing nothing; framing concept.

In regards to the use of gravity, Romanov has a great quote from Leonardo da Vinci: “Motion is created by the destruction of balance.” If the crane in your example had the ability to move forward its support to keep it under its center of gravity, it would have moved north. So, there is a horizontal action, but it’s not one of propulsion, but of picking up and moving support.

Roscoe

BTW–are you a guitarist, dreadnought?

39

Well, what can I say, I still don’t get it.

Guitarist? No. I briefly took lessons ages ago, but I never developed any great skill. Was there something I said that made you think that?

40

In regards to the use of gravity, Romanov has a great quote from Leonardo da Vinci: “Motion is created by the destruction of balance.” If the crane in your example had the ability to move forward its support to keep it under its center of gravity, it would have moved north. So, there is a horizontal action, but it’s not one of propulsion, but of picking up and moving support.

Isn’t that the obvious action inherent in all running? If you don’t pick up and move your support (your feet), you will fall over, regardless of what form you use.

As far as using gravity as propulsion, it just doesn’t work. The force vector for gravity is perpendicular to your intended direction of movement.

You can move your center of mass forward so long as it doesn’t extend beyond the ends of your support (your foot), so it seems that you could move it from your mid foot to your forefoot, but the whole “falling” thing is matter of sensation, not propulsion.

As far as “Motion is created by the destruction of balance”, that’s true, but it creates acceleration. To maintain a constant velocity, you would have to be in balance. If you are out of balance, you either have to accelerate vertically (fall down), or horizontally (until the force vector extends through your CoM).