Pool Etiquette II

I am an above average swimmer. I raced until after university and had a fair amount of sucess and I also played water polo. I am now swimming in a gym pool. Nice little 4 lane yards pool that is very rarely crowded when our master’s group isn’t there.

I often swim in the morning on my own. There is a gentleman that swims there at the same time who is also a triathlete. HE has a very powerful kick and a generally good stroke. I have noticed that he is straightarmed under water, robbing him of much of his power. I think that this is significant enough to be slowing him down by 10 seconds per 100. We converse and talk politely but I would not say we are friends. I have been dying to say something to him about his stroke because he trains hard and doesn’t seem to improve.

In short, can I play coach or will my directness insult him (we do have to share the pool)?

Everybody wants to get faster. In casual conversation just mentioned that you noticed something and were afraid to mention it before b/c you didn’t want him to be offended. Or ask him to explain why he swims with a straight arm, you noticed and tried it and it didn’t seem to work for you.

Tell him and do it quick. I wish someone would help me with my stroke. So what do you mean by straight arm? My storke is kind of like two windmills. If I have a straight arm pushing me under my body, doesn’t that push more water behind me?

I think the best example for describing why a straight arm isn’t ideal is to try and lift yourself out of the pool with your arm straight out in front of you. Now, try doing it with your arm bent at the elbow and your hands closer to the centre of your body. Which way is easier? Which way creates a stronger force? Just like running, we swim by applying pressure on the water in the opposite way of our desired motion. The stronger the force the faster we move (assuming all else remains the same). The difference in swimming over running is that sometimes we have to sacrifice a bit of power or strength in order to improve our hydrdynamics, this is not one of those cases.

Great explanation and example. Thanks.

There is the possibility of giving someone a life long complex.

I was swimming one day last year and a masters swimmer who just blows by me all the time, he and I talk, and I am always bitching about my speed, and one day, he said, “you know, you’ve got one heck of a cross over going in your arms.” That’s one problem. You are fishtailing down the lane. If you filmed it, you’d see it.

Of course, I had no idea, I thought I had a pretty good stroke.

Got out the camera. And man, whoaaa! I swim just like the dudes who I laugh at in the other lanes, who have funky arm movements. One lesson learned, don’t laugh at anybody until you see your own stroke. Odds are, unless you were a competitive swimmer in college or high school, it looks retarded.

Also, what looks like wide entry in the water, is usually not.

On a right breath, right entry, my right arm is crossing midline, and on my left the gliding arm is also crossing over across the midline. He was absolutely right. Also, this happens on a left breath, left entry. In short, a double cross over. I bilateral breath on 3.

After he told me that, last year, I have read every single book, from TI to Slowguy’s thing here about using some surgical chord, to wrap around my feet to keep my legs from splaying as I lose my balance trying to fix this. I do all the side kicking drills and, arm extended drills, catchup everything, (swim like you are swimming “rail to rail”) but it just won’t go away.

Now, I’ve just given up and accepted the crossover. Doing the extended arm, side kick and or catchup, is fine, but when the real swimming starts, back it comes. About the only thing I’m doing now is just accepting it, or I might think, on a right breath right entry. Left arm enter at 10 oclock, right arm at 2 Oclock. I thought you know what, “I think that simple solution fixed it,” get out the video camera, and what looks like a 10 and 2 entry, when I’m in the water, looks again like a “mild double cross over on tape.”

I’m glad he told me, but not glad he told me.

Everybody wants to get faster. In casual conversation just mentioned that you noticed something and were afraid to mention it before b/c you didn’t want him to be offended. Or ask him to explain why he swims with a straight arm, you noticed and tried it and it didn’t seem to work for you.

Thanks for the opinion. I am fairly confident in my stroke. It is not perfect (I breathe every stroke on my left, I pause at the top with my right hand when tired, and I shorten my left arm pull when sprinting). I agree that a cross over can be very difficult to fix. I don’t think the straight arm thing is quite the same type of problem. The crossover is usually the result of the combination of a number of factors (kick, body position, breathing style) and can require an almost complete overhaul (with the associated downtime as well) to fix. I think the straight arm thing is a more isolated problem that can be fixed without too much focus on other areas of the stroke.

Or it could be that’s just what sort of freestyle works best for him. There are some contradictory folks out there who are actually faster with a low elbow freestyle than with a normal high elbow freestyle.

If you think he’s not in that group, and want to help him, you might do the reverse psychology thing and ask for his opinion on your stroke first.

I would be very careful about correcting someone’s stroke, I thought i had a fairly good stroke, and then i started properly swimming… i was told to stop “s” pulling, and keep my arm straight underwater because when combined with proper body roll its actually more effective and thus faster, I also had somewhat of a cross-over which they pointed out… sooo i worked on that all summer… and i get back this year and i was told my recovery sucks and that i gotta get my elbow even higher, and i have this body wiggle going on, which was diagnosed by having tight infraspinatus muscles, (muscle under the scapula which is responsible for much of the recovery motion) and generally tight shoulder muscles, which i now strech every day… and don’t even get my started on my flip turns…
So, despite the fact that i teach swimming, and consider myself a fairly good swimmer (50 free = 29.0, 50 back = 35.5, 100 free = 1.04, (no dive start either), 400 free = 5.15 (no dive)) i’m still pretty hesitant about correcting others strokes, unless they’res a glaring mistake, terrible cross over, catch-up occuring etc.

thats just my $.002 though…

david

re “flip turns,” every one of mine is just a little bit different, especially after about the nineth or tenth lap. The worst ones, are when the lanes are full, and you miss the flip, nothing like finding some dignified composure, after that, sometimes it will be so bad, I’ll just quit the whole interval on that one; or going to deep, and breathing out to fast, where you have to come up for air like a submarine to the surface, from the bottom. I call this one, “Das Boot.”

Others, in ranking of pain and injury:

  1. A Stone Cold Steve Austin—a flip turn in which you come to far into the wall and scrape your head or hit it straight dead on, before or during the flip.

  2. The Achilles Heel—a flip turn in which you come to far to the wall, and on the flip one or both heels, or ankles, hit the side edge of the pool.

  3. The Das Boot—see above, a flip turn in which the push off is far too deep in the water, and you are out of air, and come to the surface like a damaged submarine.

  4. A one legger—an unbalanced push off, after the flip, where only one leg correctly gets square on the pad for push off.

  5. A “whiffer”—a flip turn in which you completely miss judge the pool wall for flip and push off.

  6. A “glancer” is same as above, you have mistimed your flip too soon, and you just barely scrape the wall with the bottom of your foot or feet, and are unable to push off.

  7. A “bloody glancer”—see #6, except this time, the scrape causes the loss of toe skin or bottom of foot skin.

  8. A “bad twister popper”—a unbalanced flip turn in which you start the twist too soon after the push off, contorting your feet and knees on the wall, and when you push off you hear your knees “pop.”

  9. A “bad gulper”—occurs, when before the flip turn, you gulp in as much air as possible for the long deprivation needed, but you sucked in some water, too, and you start coughing or screw up the flip turn. A bad gulper, can be the cause of a whiffer, a bad twister popper, or a one legger, or a bloody glancer.

I would say that most bad flip turns come from a variation of #9, that is, trying to sneak in one last breath before the wall. You shouldn’t be breathing from the flags in. When you try to breathe on the last stroke, you can’t see the wall and really have no hope of judging the distance correctly. Work on getting a consistent stroke count per length, and match your breathing pattern to it. That way you will approach the wall more consistently. If you do have to take an extra stroke, don’t try to sneak in a breath, or just glide in. Don’t worry about losing speed coming into the wall, you’ll be better off ‘hitting’ your turn correctly and coming off the wall faster.

LOL! This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time. Now you’ve given me a complex. I don’t know how to do flip turns, so I’m one of those guys that grabs the wall, twists, and pushes off. I had made it one of my off-season goals to learn to flip turn, but just the thought of the bad gulper/bloody glancer combo makes me cringe at the thought.

I learned flip turns in trial by fire mode. Joined a masters swim team, and halfway through the first workout the coach had us put on paddles for 500 yards of freestyle pulls. Well I hit the wall to do the normal grab and turn and — well I’m sure you can imagine that it didn’t work. Next time around I came up on the wall and somehow, magically, was able to do a flip turn. Good thing, too. Would have been kind of embarassing to explain to the coach why I had to sit out a set.

So anyway, I did 500 yards with flip turns with the paddles on and felt pretty proud of myself. Problem was I got used to timing the flip with the paddles on. After the pulls we did a few laps of recovery and on the first one I completely misjudged the wall. That was embarrasing.

Lee

Re learning flip turns – I made up my mind a year ago to just learn it and stick to it. First, I practiced by flipping in mid pool just to be able to practice it without fear of putting ankles on the deck or in the gutter. I read that tip somewhere, but I can’t remember where. Once I got the hang of doing the flip, I started doing relatively slow speed approaches to the wall. One certainly must keep on eye on the wall to judge distance even though the wall doesn’t move. Also, it’s best I think to bend the legs quite a bit when you’re starting out. This makes the flip more like a somersault and less like a true flip turn. But you do get to adjust to the wall more easily. I find it a lot easier to extend legs out to touch feet on the wall if I’ve turned a little short of the wall. It’s easier than gracefully pulling the legs back in after banging into the wall. The whimpering draws unwanted attention as well.

After I was able to do the flip turns with some degree of comfort I just resolved to do them continuously for longer and longer distances. I didn’t flog myself to do just flip turns. I’d do two in a row, then a five, etc. Now I do them exclusively.

I also learned to breath on either side in the same way (building up to it – not flipping in mid-pool!). Now I either breathe after every third stroke (alternating sides) or I breathe every two strokes, but change which side when I turn. I have found this to be useful in a couple of ways. First, if I’m racing against someone in another lane I can always keep on eye on them. This is particularly good for chasing the young mermaids who swim at my gym once in a while. Breathing every third stroke seems to be a good ratio if you’re going quite a long way. For another, it’s good to be able to breathe for quite a while on the same side – either side. For example, I have seen whole packs of people drift off course because they always breathed on the same side, and got the next buoy a little bit onto their ‘off’ side. It’s also really handy to be able to pick a side in order to breathe away from the wind if it’s blowing spray up your nose. And it’s handy to breathe so you can see the sets coming if there are waves. I have passed many who got pounded by an incoming set they didn’t see because it came over the side of their body where they weren’t breathing.

And on the topic of giving advice, I’d vote for the reverse psychology thing. A) most people appreciate being asked for their advice so you get the conversation off on the right foot, and B) if you’re beating the guy up and down the pool and he DOESN’T ask for a reciprocal opinion, you get your signal loud and clear: don’t bother offering advice. There are lots of parallels, strangely enough, to playing golf. I have such a terrible swing that anyone could see six things wrong with it. But mostly I don’t want to hear about it. If I ever get serious about fixing it, I’ll pay to hear it from a professional teacher. Some people may view swimming the same way…

My significant flip-turn memoirs:

“2. The Achilles Heel—a flip turn in which you come to far to the wall, and on the flip one or both heels, or ankles, hit the side edge of the pool.”

Me–Dual meet, Air Force Academy at Western State College, 100 free, December 1977. Won the race. Was a hero. Could hardly walk for a week.

“5. A “whiffer”—a flip turn in which you completely miss judge the pool wall for flip and push off.”

Me–NCAA Div. II National Championships, 400 free relay, Cleveland State Universtiy Natatorium, March 1978. Team finished 10th. Was the goat. Had to walk home.