I have a client that pedals with an extreme toe down toe foot position regardless of saddle height.
His cycling performance is low compared to his run even though he started both at the same time, several years ago…
I suspect his pedalling style is in part responsible for this… and my questios is of anyone has dealt with something similar or knows a way to work into a more ortodox pedalling… I’ve thought about using big gear intervals…
What is his run form like and how is his ankle flexibility?
his run form is pretty good, and I would guess he has a pretty stardant/correct ankle ROM
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History of knee injury? A friend of mine tends to ride “twinkle toed” due to a blown ACL. At least thats his excuse…
no knee injury.
my gut feeling is that he’s very weak , he has pure runner legs, and tries to compensate by pedalling circles instead of pushing down hard,
For his run what kind of foot contact does he have and does his heel contact the ground? And I would want to know what his ankle motion and calf flexibility is like. Better to have that kind of info rather than guessing if you want to help him address the issue. Also important to start simple. If he’s pointing his toes then start there.
Saddle height isn’t the only variable that would change up his pedal stroke. Who did his last fit? Cleat position? Saddle position etc.
You mentioned his bike performance is not up to par and you’re identifying errors in his setup. Might be time to get back to the drawing board? I’m not a professional fitter but that seems like a smart way to go before you start jumping to a high gear.
Maybe check his cleat position. I used to ride heel up a lot as I felt I was always trying to push my foot further forward over the pedal axle. Drilled all my shoes 20-25mm further back and don’t ride that way any more.
Had the opportunity of participating in a fitting session with John Cobb some years ago.
After he was satisfied with some adjustments, he said, “you have to learn to pedal with your heels down.”
Just as I sometimes concentrate on form while swimming, I concentrate on pedaling with my heels down. For me, a lower cadence helps.
Depending on your definition of “extreme toe down”, there might not really be much wrong with it. There’s kind of an old-school way of thought that heel down is the only way, but there are a lot of individual factors that go into how each of us ride our bikes. We are big asymmetrical piles of meat and bones on a symmetrical machine - none of us are the same and none of us are symmetrical. To me, the thing I would be looking at is how much “ankling” they are doing. If they are toe down, but somewhat consistently toe down through the entire stroke is different than if they are ankling and toe down only at the bottom of the stroke.
As others have stated, one thing I would do from a fitting perspective is ensure that the cleats are positioned as far back as possible - preferably close to the fifth metatarsal if their cleat/shoe system will allow it. There’s a bunch of other stuff I would look at too, but without seeing them and without being able to take a step-by-step approach to it, it’s hard to say what else might need to be done from a fitting perspective. This could also get into the strengths and weaknesses of their biomechanical makeup, which may best be “fixed” with the help of a PT or sports trainer.
What is his cleat position? I know I slid mine all the way back to reduce the stress on an achillies injury and it helped a lot and didn’t seem to hurt my power any.
I used to ride toe down and have since changed it to be mostly flat (relative to BDC) not vertical since I’m pretty far forward of course.
Might look at his fit as mentioned. As I slid further forward, especially after getting a Cobb JOF and a longer stem, if became even easier to flatten my foot when pedaling. I felt a lot stronger on the bike once I felt I was was riding more on top of the bars/stem, than on top of the seat.
thanks everybody for the ideas, maybe this helps, not the best video, I’ve requested a new one and asked a few questions, waiting for answers yet.
he was just fitted by someone suposed to be good, who raised his saddle 1,5cm. It inmediately seem to me it was too high, the knew angle looks ok but the ankle compensates by pointing down. He told me he had review previous videos with a lower seat and the pointy toes are there too.
It’s hard to say. Some people just ride like that. My friend is an elite and his toes are pointed that bad or maybe even worse. This guy is stupid fast too. You’d never teach someone to ride like that, but it’s how he does it.
There is nothing wrong with that ankle angle…I would not change it.
Some people just pedal “toes down”…it is not necessarily an indication of a high seat or a defect in their bike.
I tend to have a “toes down” pedaling style and the bike is my strength. For some, it is just how we pedal. Based on the video, it seems your client has a pretty good position (although I will admit that my first reaction was that his seat was a touch high…but I based that on his leg extension, not his toes.).
There is nothing wrong with that ankle angle…I would not change it.
I was thinking the same thing…“that’s not so bad”.
I also wouldn’t trust how he said it looked previously, without seeing the vids myself.
That looks perfectly normal to me.
It helps to look at the angle the foot is making with the shin. Because the body is rotated forward in the tt position vs the road bike position, toes will often point down more on the tt bike w/ the same ankle angle as the road bike position, where it appears the foot is flat.
thanks for the insight, I pedal heel down so probably I’m a bit biased
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Agreed it doesn’t look extreme at all. I’m probably in the same boat. To be honest I was more concerned with how fast he was running to and from the bike, I thought he was gonna bust his ass in cleats on that slick parking garage floor. If he’s not having issues then don’t go fixing it.
What about his hamstring flexibility and strength? I have weak hamstrings and they often times get tight. When that occurs, I tend to ride toe down more than normal. This tends to put more strain on my hip flexors and quads. Just a thought.
Yeah that is not extreme toe down by any stretch. Perfectly fine. Even if it was, as you’ve described the situation, you would be chasing shadows trying to “fix it”.