PED's can't be effective! It's been 7 years since a user has won the TDF

Triathlon Forum
1

Why? Why do we have this need to believe that someone that excells in sport must have an illegal advantage? Why can’t mankind have faith in the fact that in all aspects of life truely great people come around once in our lifetime. Did Ali, Gretzgy, Woods, use PED’s? Did Einstein use some mind enhancing drug? Do our greatest doctors, leaders, educators, retailers use some illegal advantage. Someone has to be the best and more hard work, committment and determination than anyone else can create this greatness. Maybe it’s the less dedicated athlete that turns to drugs in an attempt to capture some of this greatest (Hamilton). That age grouper that beat you by 5 minutes must be on something because there is no way they train like you…right?

Think about it? Lance claims to not use, has never tested positive and has won 6 straight. While others chasing him test positive. I guess his team can mask and hide it all and the others are new at it.

It’s a shame that our own envy, jealousy and known lack of will can cause such cynics.

2

I think you may be missing the point.

The point is NOT whether the winner (i.e., Lance, Tyler, fill-in-the-blank, etc.) of any event is ‘using’ or not whether using PEDs is indeed effective or not (it is certainly not effective over the long haul of life due to all kinds of nasty health effects and the short term effects are mixed at best and in no way definitive).

But the real point (to those observers that are brave enough to take their blinders off) is that use of PEDs in many sports (including cycling and tri) is pretty rampant, irrelevant of the drugs’ effectiveness. There are just too many morons (pros and amateurs alike) who take the toxic potions and that seems a sad and pathetic fact.

Whether ‘using’ is smart, or logical, or effective is not really that important. And anyway, logic was never a strong suit of the many quirky, superstituous, and self-esteem challenged athletes out there.

3

And, read these books, and then tell me that these allegations are all based on “envy, jealousy, and the author’s known lack of will.” Yeah, right…

I only wish it were that simple.

A rough ride–paul kimmage; Breaking the chain–will voet; Drugs, sport, and politics–robert voy, MD

4

Jimmy,

I agree with you completely but there is a whole slew of people on this forum who will insist that you and I are just blinded by immature admiration of this person. They would maintain that you are wrong and your claim is incorrect and that for the last six years the TDF has been won by a drug user! They insist he is using PEDs and has been for a long time. Its just that he is the only cyclist who seems to be successfully avoiding detection in spite of the fact that he is the most tested cyclist in the Peleton. Why are so many others getting caught or discovered but yet Lance still can bet the test. Could it be that he is clean just as he maintains he is?

Nooooooooooo! No way! Not possible. No one is capable of what he has accomplished without cheating or so the jealous say. Is he just the best damn cheater ever?

This can only mean that the Cannibal (Merckx), Anquetil, Hinault, Indurain and LeMond had to be drug users for the same reasons for they, too, accomplished incredible feats of cycling.

Go figure. Just who is immature and having difficulty reasoning logically?

I, however, think you are right on!

5

There is a latent legal issue of fraud and misrepresentation.

A sports marketing agency approaches a prospective client lat’s say for example Takanashi Automotive, Ltd.

The agency represents to Takanashi that they have an athlete or group of athletes that will increase visibility for their brand in a competitive environment through specifically targeted media exposure to their specific customer demographic. They promise “X” number of media exposures on specific media outlets on telelvision, Intenet, print, etc. They characterize that the representation will be predominately healthy, constructive and positive.

Takanashi likes what they see and forks over $15 Million for the “Takanashi Pro Cycling Team”.

Fast forward 6 months. Takanashi has hit the jackpot. Their cycling team is winning frequently and as a bonus, one of the personalities on the team has become involved in a number of media-producing human interst stories. As a result, Takanashi’s fairly minor $15 Million investment has garnered media exposure estimated by ad agencies at worth over $200 Million, if it could be purchased through normal media outlets.

Then, one day, the primary personality is implicated in a scandal. The nature of the scandal is unimportant- it is illegal, and it was not what Takanashi paid $15 Million for. Takanashi is now incised by the other edge of the double edge media sword. The personality involved willfully engaged in the decision, knowing full well it had the potential to discredit and compromise the viability and effectiveness of the media that Takanashi paid good money for.

Takanashi had other media outlet options on the table. A Hollywood film producution company offered to make their cars the featured car in a major motion picture featuring an established action hero who is a fictional character and therefore always portrayed in a controlled, positive manner. but Takanashi took a risk and went with a real person to represent and promote their brand identity. Now it has all caved in.

In much the same way Martha Stewart was reverred by some as a modern day Betty Crocker but subsequently exposed as a alledged investment fraud conspirator, there has been willful misrepresentation and fraud.

Takanashi hires a firm skilled in media damage control and pays them a $5 Million retainer to undue the damage that has been done.

Word is on the street from Madison Avenue to Wall Street to Hollywood: Don’t touch sport marketing if you are trying to purchase positive brand identity.

The personality who willfully represented themselves as wholesome, healthy and respectible was in fact a cheater and a fraud. That is illegal.

Therein lies the problem.

6

Just as an FYI - people tend to dramatically overstate the long-term health risks of PEDs, especially anabolic steroids taken under the supervision of doctors and in some cases may actually reduce risks faced by professional athletes. (this doesn’t make it right, and doesn’t address any of the ethical issues)

7

This can only mean that the Cannibal (Merckx), Anquetil, Hinault, Indurain and LeMond had to be drug users for the same reasons for they, too, accomplished incredible feats of cycling.

Have you ever heard the line “You can’t win the Tour de France on water alone.”? It’s from one of the guys you mentioned.

8

why would people be wrong telling Armstrong is on PEDs while you are obviously claiming that all others are???
Pantani being the last winner before Armstrong never tested positive in a race (he was thrown out of the giro though with high HCT which is pretty much the same thing)
Ullrich before him never tested positive either (he did test positive to ecstasy though in the winter when he is about 160kg and partying all night)
Riis never tested positive either
Indurain never tested positive

Actually the last winner of the TdF to test positive (and keep his jersey) was Pedro Delgado.

9

No drug, no medication, no PED taken for any particular effect–ABSOLUTELY NOTHING–does not also have undesired side effects.

The longer you take the item(s), the longer the side effects are felt and the longer the effects accumulate. Of course, these depend highly on the type of compound as well as the dose and the duration of item(s) taken. Sometimes the side effects are profound and sometimes they are mild, but this is a fairly obvious point.

But when you take something for recreational reasons or for some kind of perceived ‘performance enhancement’, with regard to your health and your body, as you consider the perceived benefits of the item in question, you just got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky today?

10

hmmmm…

many people in the US are antibiotics resistant because of being prescribed too many while kids and there are quite a few deaths every year because people have become antibiotic resistant…

all this under doctor supervision…

considering the side effects of many PEDs I don’t see how any of this is dramatically overstated…

11

Did Ali, Gretzgy, Woods, use PED’s?
– Probably at least one of those three, but how would I know?

Do our greatest doctors, leaders, educators, retailers use some illegal advantage.
– You can bet your bottom dollar they do! Ever checked the substance abuse statisticas among doctors and nurses?

Someone has to be the best and more hard work, committment and determination than anyone else can create this greatness.
– except there’s a limit to what hard work can achieve.

Maybe it’s the less dedicated athlete that turns to drugs in an attempt to capture some of this greatest (Hamilton).
– I don’t know if I would consider TH an undedicated athlete.

You’re logic and arguments are a little off imho.

12

actually, the biggest source of antibiotics resistance is probably the overuse in chicken farms and other livestock operations.

having said that, takes nothing away from your point. Just b/c a doc prescribes it, doesn’t mean everything about the substance is known. until we get a good handle on gene therapy, there are VERY few drugs in the world that come close to being labeled ‘without negative side effects’ as of now.

13

didn’t know about the chicken farms thing etc.
thanks.

14

nasty, huh? Bayer has been a major factor in preventing restrictions on antibiotic use in the US b/c they’re are a major vendor of those drugs.

good luck at IMB.

15

I don’t see why then NIH spends so much money to fund research on how to best ‘rotate’ antibiotics administration if the main factor is elsewhere.

16

not an expert by any means but two things contribute to this afaik.

  1. a significant source of ab resistance still lies in hospitals and general overprescription of antibiotics.

  2. virtually all of the originally devised antibiotics are now ineffective, and we are running out of the ones that do still work. So to have a continued chance to fight the increasing amount of ‘superbugs’, we need new, more powerful antibiotics, and more importantly, new molecular techniques to come up with ways to make those drugs on a large scale, and fast.

NIH do what they can I guess, but the livestock issue is under FDA which like eveyr other agency is under supervison of congress and lobbyists. Dunno how much they spend on it but it’s not a very sexy topic such as (breast) cancer, AIDS, etc.

17

Let us assume that all riders in the pelaton have the same God given natural ability. Which they don’t and we all know where LA ranks in that area. Then let us assume that one rider year after year for 6 years trains 10% more that anyone else, 10% harder than anyone else, 10% more effectively than anyone else, motivates his team 10% better than anyone else etc, etc. Is it not then possible for that rider to win each of those six years.

I never once said other riders were not dedicated, just less dedicated. All things in life are not equal.

Come on lighten up, jump on the band wagon with the rest of us. Don’t be cranky because you predicted the wrong winner of the TDF for the last 6 years.

Remember something else. The man had one foot in the grave, clawed his way back to live and is still messing with you cynical cycling gurus. It’s kind of funny when you really think about it.

18

Antibiotics are indeed an issue however this is fairly unique to antibiotics and is caused by evolutionary forces acting on the various types of bacteria and is irrelevatnt to my statement that people tend to overestimate the dangers of drug use, especially with anabolic steroids.

…and when you think about the reporting bias of steroid side effects it’s pretty easy to see how people would tend to overstate the risks. We tend to hear only about the few cases where abuse has lead to horrible side effects. There are plenty of scary anecdotes since steroid use is rampant in sports such as bodybuilding, but the actual risk incurred even by ignorant users is surprisingly low especially given the high rates of AAS use among adolescents (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11927236). Also, in cases of “roid rage” and aggression among steroid users there are significant correlation vs. causation issues http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11693226. The dangers of use certainly isn’t the only area where anecdotes do not represent the reality. http://nsca.allenpress.com/nscaonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=1533-4287&volume=18&page=908. (I know the articles aren’t perfect, but they’re the best I can do without full access)

Most of the research is done on amateur athletes who are using/abusing PEDs while not under any kind of regular supervision and professional athletes under the supervision of doctors are likely to be able to avoid negative side effects through the use of anti-estrogens and other drugs, and also through the proper use of injectable drugs which reduce the risk of toxic liver effects of oral steroids. (see bags of needles found in the trash of cyclist’s hotels).

19

I guess you should mentioned that to Museuw who was at some stage using one of the blood doping substance (PFC I think?) when it was only in stage II testing.

Actogevin was also widely used (Jimmy Jazz you want to chime in on this??)

Sprinters and other strength oriented athletes have used clenbuterol under doctor supervision.

All these things were either not even finished to test or worse not even designed for humans in the first place.

I agree that the biggest concern lies in the use of drugs without doc. supervision (how dumb can you be??) but having doc. supervision is definitely not a guarantee that it’s all fine considering what is being used…

20

that 10% figure you get it from where? OLN?? Bob Roll? Chris Carmichael?

Ullrich is less dedicated that’s for sure. it’s widely reported here and there. For the others you are just guessing…do you have access to the training logs of Basso & co?

but if you want to believe that Lance is god go ahead…maybe he can run for pope, the position is available (and there is no testing)