Frank, has any seasoned PC user tried the following experiment. Do a 5 mile TT, using only enough pulling up power to get the pedal back, up and over the top and then repeat the test but this time using maximum pulling up power. Time taken to do TT or average power produced over the 5 miles should supply the proof of your claim, that is if it is genuine.
That would prove that applying more force makes you go faster. Same thing works with regular cranks. Nothing novel there.
You simply could not do it. Applying maximum pulling power over the top would not be doable for more than a few pedal revolutions. Even a well adapted PC rider is applying little more than enough pull to get the pedal up and over the top. Maybe a little more on a climb. In order to put out significantly more pulling power, you would have to train for it specifically (even PCs don’t do that). Training to unweight the pedal and pull the leg and pedal over the top is automatic with PCs because you have to. Applying more pulling power than that is not automatic and I suspect would take years of adaptation and specific training for that purpose. I just don’t see anyone being able to pull this off.
Mike
P.S. I have done many miles on PCs including a century or two
Frank, has any seasoned PC user tried the following experiment. Do a 5 mile TT, using only enough pulling up power to get the pedal back, up and over the top and then repeat the test but this time using maximum pulling up power. Time taken to do TT or average power produced over the 5 miles should supply the proof of your claim, that is if it is genuine.
I am sure people have done that. However that doesn’t prove the claim. As Yobbo says. That would just prove that applying more pressure of rforce makes you go faster.
It is clear (at least to me but not,if you have been paying attention, to everyone) that unweighting on the backstroke makes a difference.
It is not clear that actually applying force on the upstroke will make a difference over applying the equivalent “extra” force on the downstroke. I believe it will but it has not been demonstrated.
The only way to demonstrate this will be to analyze with force plate pedals demonstrable efficiency or power improvement gains (or both) in those who do such a thing over those who do not. Not only will it take an interested scientist (few who hang out here) but it will take a population of PC adapted research subjects. It will probably eventually happen but don’t hold your breath.
I just don’t see anyone being able to pull this off.
actually I did think of a little experiment one could do to see if it made a difference.
Look at it this way. The fact that one is not applying significant force to the pedal on the upstroke does not mean one is not doing significant work. Lifting the heavy leg is putting potential energy into it that one gets back on the downstroke. An alternative to pulling up harder on the pedal would be to add weight to the leg with anke weights or something. This would force the rider to pull up harder but would have little effect on speed on a flat course (or on a Computrainer). One could see if adding ankle weights increased speed.
The only problem with this little “experiment” is one doesn’t know if one is really pulling up harder or just changing the force on the pedals. Unless those forces are actually measured one doesn’t know what is really happening.
Frank, has any seasoned PC user tried the following experiment. Do a 5 mile TT, using only enough pulling up power to get the pedal back, up and over the top and then repeat the test but this time using maximum pulling up power. Time taken to do TT or average power produced over the 5 miles should supply the proof of your claim, that is if it is genuine.
I am sure people have done that. However that doesn’t prove the claim. As Yobbo says. That would just prove that applying more pressure of rforce makes you go faster.
It is clear (at least to me but not,if you have been paying attention, to everyone) that unweighting on the backstroke makes a difference.
It is not clear that actually applying force on the upstroke will make a difference over applying the equivalent “extra” force on the downstroke. I believe it will but it has not been demonstrated.
I understand all about unweighting, but in your earlier statements you claimed that the greater portion of that 40 % power increase was to come from pulling up power and it was this claim that led to your argument with Coggan. In the experiment mentioned above, a rider doing the tests would be using maximum downward pedal pressure in both TT’s. As I have stated before, I believe that the PC’s advantage comes from the unweighting effect and there is nothing to be gained from pulling up more than is necessary for early and total unweighting of the rising pedal except when rapid acceleration is required and now you seem to be agreeing with this.
That is what makes PC’s the ideal training equipment for a beginner.
I understand all about unweighting, but in your earlier statements you claimed that the greater portion of that 40 % power increase was to come from pulling up power and it was this claim that led to your argument with Coggan. In the experiment mentioned above, a rider doing the tests would be using maximum downward pedal pressure in both TT’s. As I have stated before, I believe that the PC’s advantage comes from the unweighting effect and there is nothing to be gained from pulling up more than is necessary for early and total unweighting of the rising pedal except when rapid acceleration is required and now you seem to be agreeing with this.
That is what makes PC’s the ideal training equipment for a beginner.
I would be surprised that I ever said that the greater percentage of the 40% power increase I claim for PC’s came from pulling up power. Many have misinterpreted what i have said to think that when I say pulling up I mean pulling up power when what I really mean is unweighting. One cannot unweight without pulling up.
Anyhow, I don’t know exactly where the 40% improvements are coming from. I believe it is from a combination of several improvements including efficiency improvements from unweighting the backstroke, efficiency improvements from changing the direction of the resultant force vector of applied muscular power, and increasing the muscle mass used during cycling.
From a research point of view, it is first necessary to show that improvements actually occur (Luttrell is a good start), then what the magnitude of the changes that are possible (is 40% in 6-9 months a good number), then, once these are confirmed (or better numbers obtained, maybe 30% or 10% is a better number) it will be interesting to know where these improvements are coming from.
The arguments with me and Coggan and others come more from the fact that they seem to think that such improvements are impossible over ordinary training techniques and that efficiency improvements are not important to the racer.
Remember, even now in non-PC riders “maximum downward pedal pressure” comes from both muscle power and the recovery of the potential energy put into the leg lifting it, whether that lifting occurred because it was pushed up fully or partially by the other leg or because it was lifted by its own muscles. Somehow, it had to get up against gravity. So, whether you think you are or not, if you unweight the pedal on the upstroke even a little you are pedaling in the PC style. All PC’s do is increase the degree to which this happens.
I don’t know that there is nothing to be gained from pulling up more than the minimum. An argument can be made either way. I suspect there is an advantage but I don’t know that. I suspect the best advantage is when the pushing and pulling muscles are working equally in relation to their capabilities. This does not mean one will be seeing equal pressure on the pedals all the way around the circle.
Frank
Dr. Day wrote: I suspect the best advantage is when the pushing and pulling muscles are working equally in relation to their capabilities.
I don’t see how any reasonable person could disagree with this statement. I think it’s fine for people to disagree with what constitutes a muscle group’s capabilities…but, the statement itself is 100% accurate.
I’ve got a PC experiment… Save your $1000.00 and ride your bike 25% more. I guarantee that you will become a faster cyclist and you will have more money.