Anyone else watch this last night? I thought it was fascinating.
It dealt with the question by examining the experiences and beliefs of C.S. Lewis and Freud. They had actors portray the two men, and the biographies were interspersed with a round table discussion.
The round table discussion was considerably less heated than that which occurs on Slowtwitch, but also more superficial, generally. There were a few good points made, though. I particularly liked the observation that belief in God, for someone who doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other, amounts to a bet- but not one in which the payoff happens in the afterlife, but in everyday life, right now.
The notion of the bet was originated in popular terms by Pascal, in what’s now called “Pascal’s Wager”.
If you bet yes and you’re correct, then you win. If you bet yes and you’re incorrect, you’re out nothing. But if you bet no, and you’re wrong, then you’re screwed. Or so was Pascal’s logic. The flaw in the logic is obvious - if you bet yes and you’re wrong, you are in fact out something - a lifetime of believing and following what is otherwise a fallacy, a mass illusion, or otherwise known in modern terms as George W. Bush.
Out of curiosity, did they explain why they thought it was a bet which pays off right now?
“Pays off” is perhaps not the best term.
The idea is that no matter which way you bet, whether it be for or against belief in God, the consequences of that bet are not only in the afterlife, if there is one, but here, in this world, now. This is true because (dis)belief in God is a large- perhaps the largest- part of a person’s worldview. It affects how one perceives reality itself.
Let’s say that you bet God exists. Let’s say you’re wrong. You’re now going to live your day to day life based on a false premise, right? Your entire belief system is based on fantasy. Not the best way to get throught life, right?
Alternatively, let’s say you bet there is no God, and you’re wrong. Now you’re going through life denying the bedrock of reality, and the effect would be as if you decided to live without believing in the effects of gravity. (I don’t say it’s the same, obviously, since you scientists will tell me that we can directly observe the effects of gravity, and I agree. But the *effect *would be similar, if you bet this way and lost.)
i haven’t seen the program so i might not be qualified to post but when has that stopped anyone here?
how does my belief in god affect my life now? what are the consequences? in the explaining the bet, either way you have lived your life believing something. it only becomes reality when you find out the answer. if no one ever proved gravity existed how would your life be different?
can we forget about the god debate and just be good people?
how does my belief in god affect my life now? what are the consequences? in the explaining the bet, either way you have lived your life believing something.
Yes, but you make it sound as if it makes no difference one way or the other. It does.
What you are saying is that it doesn’t make any difference, in actual life, whether or not we apprehend reality itself correctly. It’s an insane proposition. I might just as well say that it doesn’t matter whether or not I believe in the sun.
if you don’t believe in the sun does it not rise in the morning and set at night? you can still live your life. all those years people thought the world was flat they still lived happy full lives.
you believe it to be reality until you are proved otherwise.
this is a terrible conversation because we are talking about something that can not be proven.
this is a terrible conversation because we are talking about something that can not be proven. No, we’re not really. (Not that talking about something which can’t be proven is terrible, either.) We’re not talking about whether or not God exists, we’re talking about whether or not it matters that we believe correctly, whether or not our beliefs should conform to reality, whether or not it’s OK to live in some fantasy.
all those years people thought the world was flat they still lived happy full lives. But they didn’t go sailing around the globe, did they? If we decided today to start believing, once again, that the world is flat, you don’t think it would matter? What if we adopt the belief that the earth is at the center of the universe?
We’re not talking about whether or not God exists, we’re talking about whether or not it matters that we believe correctly, whether or not our beliefs should conform to reality, whether or not it’s OK to live in some fantasy. i will agree with that.
would you agree that our beliefs are based on what we percieve to be reality? on this forum i believe you to be named “vitus979”. it does not matter if your name is bob, renee, or snarf in the outside world. i am still able to interact with you in all ways allowed by this “reality”. this belief is wrong or a fantasy in the outside world but it does not change anything here.
we know that the world isn’t flat and we aren’t at the center. to believe that would be wrong.
i believe our beliefs should reflect reality, with the belief that reality can change.
on this forum i believe you to be named “vitus979”. it does not matter if your name is bob, renee, or snarf in the outside world.
It would matter if you believed my name to be Jessica.
we know that the world isn’t flat and we aren’t at the center. to believe that would be wrong.
Exactly. And if we mistakenly believe that the earth is flat, there are logical consequences that flow from that mistake.
i believe our beliefs should reflect reality, with the belief that reality can change.
??? I’m not sure what you mean. In the context of our discussion, reality does not change. The earth was not flat because we believed it to be. God either exists or does not, no matter what we believe. Our perceptions of reality change, sometimes. Our goal should always be to have those perceptions actually match reality.
Present events cannot affect the past. If you learn of a fact right now, it cannot change the way you have prviously lived your life. It can only change the way you WILL live your life. Having acquired your new knowledge, you may regret certain things you’ve done in the past, but you can’t change any of it.
The only time when you are going to have 100% proof, not a belief, proof, that god exists, is after you die and presumably all is revealed. The knowledge you acquire at that point can’t possibly affect your previous existence, other than to make you regret, or be proud of, certain actions.
"The only time when you are going to have 100% proof, not a belief, proof, that god exists, is after you die and presumably all is revealed. The knowledge you acquire at that point can’t possibly affect your previous existence, other than to make you regret, or be proud of, certain actions. "
Very true. If there is a god you will only get to know after you die. If there is no god you will never know because you will cease to exist after you die. Whether there is a god or not, all you can do is live your life and wait to find out.
It matters little to me what people choose to believe as long as they keep it to themselves. People cross the line when they try to force their beliefs on others. Why can’t people just be happy with their own beliefs and not feel it necessary to coearce others into believing as they do? It’s almost as if people get some kind of bonus points for everyone they bring into their way of believing.
**The only time when you are going to have 100% proof, not a belief, proof, that god exists, is after you die and presumably all is revealed. The knowledge you acquire at that point can’t possibly affect your previous existence, other than to make you regret, or be proud of, certain actions. **
It doesn’t matter. Whether or not God exists, one’s *belief *concerning that existence is what affects one’s life. That’s the whole point.
Are you people screwing with me, or what? This is not a difficult concept, nor should it be controversial.
The idea is that one’s belief or disbelief in the existence of God has a very significant effect on one’s worldview, and thus one one’s life. It’s a bet precisely because one will not find out for a fact until one is dead.
