Umm…
I sent you two a PM last week… was hoping for an answer…
Maybe you missed seeing it…
stick your question here.
Okay, here it is…
Kinda defeats the purpose of a PM, though… I didn’t want to put you (or Tom) in the position of publicly “endorsing” (or not) one or the other (or a third?) fit scheme… unless you want to…
I want to get a good fit on my road bike, but I’m (a) broke and (b) in central Kentucky. This leaves me with two local shops, one which offers the Fit Kit ($35), and the other offers Serotta ($80). My current “fit” is the result of using Wrench Science and then tweaking the saddle some. It’s okay, but not so good. I’ve added some background info at the bottom of this note, but I’ll cut to the chase…
Short version: I’m looking for some advice about my relatively limited fitting options. Pros and Cons of each system, pointed questions to ask the shops before choosing, things to look for, other options I may not have considered, etc… Due to expenses, I don’t appear to have much choice other than one of these two shops (and therefore one of these two systems)… From the sales lit, the Serotta fit appears to be the “better” (more personalized?) fit, but is it enough better than Fit Kit to justify more than double the price?
I’ve polled the local club folk, and frankly they weren’t much help… they seem to be in the “trial and error” camp, mostly.
Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated.
Background info that might be useful:
Both shops have a designated “expert” fitter who’s been trained by the respective fit company… very little information on how much experience they have…
The “fit kit” shop is pretty friendly, and at least some of the workers there seem pretty knowledgeable, but the shop is new, and doesn’t have much of a reputation yet. The more senior employees do really seem to know their stuff… but there is somewhat of a lean toward touring/general riding vs. racing. They are the closest thing to a triathlon shop in town, though. They carry Felt, Specialized, Burley, Independent Fabrications, Moots, Cervelo, Co-Motion tandems, etc. plus their house-brand custom cruisers.
The “Serotta” shop has been around a long time, major supporter of the local club scene, sponsors an MTB team, has some long time employees that are well known locally. Giant, Litespeed, Serotta (obviously), Cannondale here. I think they had one Cannondale tri bike that they were unable to sell. Lean much more toward road and MTB racing, and (stock) cruisers…
Just to give you a feel for the shops… “fit kit” has an “Ordinary” bike prominently in their entranceway, next to a Specialized Roubaix Elite and a little kids’ pedal-pusher police car. “Serotta” keeps their 700Cx38 hybrid spare tubes behind the counter, not on the shelf.
Me? I’m a beginner cyclist and triathlete. Most of my actual riding is with the cycling club on rolling hills, or droning on my trainer, or solo rides onthe same rollers. short but steep stuff. I had planned to do 3 sprint triathlons (my first three) this year, along with a century, but got sidelined by a running injury (broken foot). Not terribly flexible or strong, but working on that. 6’0", 195lb (and dropping)… slow. I do well to get 1,000 mi per year, nearly all road sport riding. Might try some TT’s and longer road events next year. Gonna sign up for an Oly tri as well.
Anyway, I’ve done the “Wrench Science” thing, and it’s an okay fit, but not quite right. The bike is a Specialized Allez Elite 54cm, with stock stem. I keep fiddling with the saddle height, and feel I might need to raise the stem angle for comfort… I’m saving up for some “shorty” clip-ons, but don’t realistically expect to have them before late next year or even 2007. I expect to redo the fit at that time to accomodate the clip-ons.
Serotta.
Any supporting reasons, or should it just be that obvious?
I think that the resulting fit will still be one step in the evolutionary phase of becoming a cyclist. Your fit evolves as you do and either system is a snapshot on your current step. The step will be hard to eclipse riding 2.7 miles a day on average. I think trial and error and lots of reading can get you where you need to be, and gains in performance and comfort would not be realised from a fit at this point.
I am not Tom nor Dan.
-SD
if it’s a road fit on a road bike (not a bike for riding triathlons) you ought to be fine at either shop. road fit is not that hard to execute. if it’s a tri fit probably the closest tri specific shop that takes these things seriously is wheelie fun outside cincy, robert duncan is a fairly serious student of fit, tho i think he still hasn’t awoken to smell the coffee about steeper seat angles. which might mean you’ve got to keep driving north to see tom at bikesport.
Well, I’ll be riding triathlons on it, but since it’s effectively my ONLY bike, and it’s got a solidly 73.5 degree seat tube, I guess I’d be best served with a road fit.
So far that’s one solid vote for Serotta, one solid vote for “don’t waste your time. you’re not riding enough for it to matter”, and one vote for “road bike fits are easy, either system will work fine”.
Once the financial situation is corrected, I’ll go for the FIST fit on a P3 (or similar). That’ll have to wait a couple years, tho.
I’ll check back with this thread ASAP. I’m swamped with fits today…
Unfortunately, nobody here can help you. The fact that somebody has a fit kit, or has gone through the Serotta school or the FIST camp doesn’t mean diddly squat. It means they have been told how to fit properly, it doesn’t mean that they follow the rules (or even remember them). In fact, this is one of my worries. These schools and camps are great for people to learn how to fit, they are also great for people to pretend they know how to fit so they don’t actually have to know how. I have no idea if that is the case at either of these two shops, but unfortunately basing your choice on the system they use is just as useless as basing it on anything else you’ve got on offer so far.
Sorry I can’t be of more help, but really, nobody can unless there are some people who have used those shops or another one close by.
Wow Gerard!
Are you pissed at something or someone? That’s the second time you’ve said “that doesn’t mean diddly squat”
Frustrated, aren’t you? Do you remember when one would have to get certified to work with certain steel tubing, i.e, Reynolds 753. Which meant that to purchase and work with Reynolds 753, you had to prove your work. Maybe that kind of system should be implemented in the field of triathlon/TT bike fittings. Then maybe being a fitter will mean something besides diddly squat. Going through the schooling is not enough, The fitters should be rigorously tested to get a bike fitting license. People fitting other people on bikes should have some sort of credential. Anyway, I don’t know if the Serotta or FIST camps require that sort of thing. If they don’t, that may be the problem. People are not following or remembering the rules of bike fitting, because they are not really forced to. It would help people sift through all of the BS fitters, and find good ones. I know that is what FIST and Serotta was for, but apparently it’s not good enough.
Gerard,
I appreciate your point. That’s why part of my question was, in effect,
“What are some pointed questions I can ask the folks that will help me ferret out whether they actually know what they’re doing or not?”
I don’t know much, but I’ve learned enough from here (and elsewhere) that it will matter as much WHO does the fit as which system they use. The bad thing is, the list of WHOs is very short in my area… as is, apparently, the list of customers to support a larger list of whos…
“Are you pissed at something or someone? That’s the second time you’ve said ‘that doesn’t mean diddly squat’”
G-man is right. taking a FIST workshop doesn’t make you a good fitter, nor does being a barnett grad make you a good mechanic. what makes you a good tri bike fitter is understanding what FIST teaches (whether or not you identify these principles with FIST) AND doing 100 fits a year. and if i was going to choose one or the other as an indicator of ability, it would be the latter. in fact, if one guy was FIST certified and did very few fits, and other performed 3 fits a week and agreed with everything that slowtwitch writes about bike fit but had never been to a FIST workshop, i’d go to the latter.
practice makes perfect. both serotta and new england cycling academy teach good things. the guy who’s been fitting people several times a week for several years, and has invested in the equipment needed to do the fits, is the guy you want to go to for a road bike fit.
Aaaah! Now we’re talking! Two questions - to start with:
“How long have you been doing this?”
“How many fits/year do you do? (as opposed to how many fits/year he/she THROWS, I suppose…)”
Good stuff! Keep 'em coming! 
Dan,
Somewhere in this vast ocean (some would say swamp) of triathlon information, don’t you have a list of things to ask of a fitter to see if he knows his stuff?
Futher to Dan’s comments, I think what he says is also very apparent at the FIST workshops. I was at the first ever FIST camp, and there were some people there who have been fitting for years and some who never had (mostly coaches). Some of the experienced fitters had already looked at all these issues Dan broad up, some had very good systems they had made by themselves, some had knowledge of physiology outstripping Dan’s or mine. I remember especially Hank from Edge Cycleworks and Dan & Fiona from Endurosport, they had formulas and charts of their own, and really looked at so many different ways to approach fitting. It’s almost like they had so many systems, they didn’t need any of them anymore because they had seen enough to know if a position was right or not by looking at it. Of course, they still used the systems, but really as a confirmation, not because it told them anything new. Not everybody agreed on everything, but through the years they had all moved in very similar directions. So for them (as well as Dan and myself), the FIST camp was more about comparing notes and philosophizing about fit, whereas for some of the people with not too much experience, it was a little over their heads. They were still quite intimidated by it all after it was all over and done with.
But I am not sure how to solve it, other than that these people just need to get more practice setting people up, and the first 100 they do should be free and the subjects should be made aware that they can come back any time (this actually is something that every fitter should do for you, no matter how experience he/she is).
Gerard.
Don’t bother - you don’t know didly squat.
Sorry it took me a few hours to get back to this thread- which is a good one by the way. Actually though, it is good that it took a while since the thread really has some direction now.
Gerard said something I was not necessarily in a position to:
“people just need to get more practice setting people up”
I agree with that. Additionally, and I know there is a significant amount of disagreement on this, I think it is beneficial to be involved in the specific sports that your customers are involved in and to participate in them as often as you are able. I think this gives you a very accurate perspective and insight into what their experiences are.
Bike fitting is the hot ticket right now, and there are no credentials or qualifying standards. You could print up some business cards yourself today, hang a sign, put up a website and boom… You are a bike fitter.
Because of the growth in awareness of the importance of bike fitting there are a lot more “bike fitters” out there. They wave lasers around, buy impressive looking theatrical props (measuring tools) and use fancy physiological vernacular to infer their credibility.
It’s good there are more bike fitters now, the industry needs them and consumers deserve good fittings.
It’s bad that there are no real qualifying standards for being a bike fitter.
I think ultimately the best measure of a bike fitter may be the number of customers they have exerted a positive benefit on using what they know about bike fit- regardless of where they learned it.
When you want to buy a bike, you either do or don’t buy into the importance of bike fit. If you do buy into the significance of bike fitting as the primary determining factor (above all else) in your comfort and performance then shopping for a bike fitter you trust is more important than shopping for a bike.
My opinion is that is the best approach- but then again- that is what I am selling… bike fit.
A good question to ask is what a bike fitter has done and their expereince in the sport. I think that is so important I put it on our store’s website.
Bob Duncan at Wheelie Fun (or Kyle Poland, their VERY tall Pro Triathlete employee) is a pretty good bike fitter. He does understand steeper seat angles, but does believe it costs some power and that not all cyclist will necessarily be “faster” at 78 degrees (but he can fit you there if you want). They are north of Cincy in Lebannon.
Wow Gerard!
Are you pissed at something or someone? That’s the second time you’ve said “that doesn’t mean diddly squat”
That’s funny, because I realized that as I typed it but I figured what the heck. Not pissed off at all, having a great time in Europe right now. Just getting ready for Eurobike, with a low-key introduction of the new Bayonne. I feel sort of like just before the Tour, when everybody was writing off Basso and I thought they were wrong. July turned out to be a great month, and so will September.
Have fun,
Other things to consider:
Do you have anyone else in your area that you ride with that has been fit by either shop? Can you get any feedback from any of their customers on the shop’s fitting results?
How much $/time is a series of massages, physical therapy visits, chiropractor visits when your fit is off vs. the extra $$ for a potentially better fit?
(that is my rationale for spending more on a fit if I think it is with a reputable fitter. Saves me therapy time and money on the back end)