P3 (P4): no benefit to 'bulged' disk?

I apologize for starting yet another thread on this subject, but thought that the topic was of sufficient interest to deserve it…

Anyway, here’s the deal-io: back in 2007, my wife went to the Texas A&M wind tunnel to refine her position aboard her P3C. Among the many things that we compared was her CdA when using a pair of Zipp clinchers (808 front and ‘bulged’ disk rear) shod with Veloflex Record tires versus when using a pair of Blackwell tubulars (100 front and flat disk rear, the latter being a rebadged, non-dimpled Zipp disk) fitted with Continential Podium tires. Despite the numerous differences between conditions, I thought it might be interesting to revisit these data, to see if it might be possible to ascertain any difference due to the shape of the rear disk alone. For starters, though, here are the raw data (mean +/- SD for 2-3 separate runs):

http://i40.tinypic.com/91dpg3.png

As I mentioned elsewhere, the protocol entailed a yaw sweep that went from 0 ->2.5 → 5 ->10 ->5 ->2.5 → 0 deg, with the left side of the bike facing the wind. As can be seen in the plot, when using the Zipp wheels there was little hysteresis in the data, with drag being quite similar at 2.5 and 5 deg regardless of the direction from which that yaw angle was approached. This indicates that minimal flow separation occurred; i.e., that the equipment used did a good job of ‘managing’ the air flow to prevent excessive turbulence.

In contrast, when using the Blackwell wheels, there was clearly some hysteresis. In particular, note how although CdA was higher even at 0 deg of yaw, the decrease that occurred at 2.5 and 5 deg of yaw on the way ‘out’ paralleled that found when using the Zipp wheels. CdA then leveled off, however, and was then clearly higher at 5 and 2.5 deg of yaw on the way ‘back’ before then dropping back down to equal that originally found at 0 deg. What this indicates is that the pedaling rider+bike ‘stalled’ somewhere between 5 and 10 deg on the way ‘out’, leading to flow separation. Flow then remained detached, such that CdA was higher, until everything was pointing straight into the wind again.

The above in itself would be good reason to choose the Zipps over the Blackwells (and in fact we already had). In the present context, however, I was curious about the extent to which this behavior could be explained by the differences in the front wheels alone. The logic here was that if you could adequately account for that difference, then any remaining difference would have to be due to the rear wheel, and thus might provide some idea as to whether a ‘bulged’ disk really helps on a P3C. Roady was kind enough to dredge up the necessary drag-vs.-yaw-angle data for the Zipp 808 and Blackwell 100 to permit such a correction, which I then used to produce the plot shown below (note that since the Blackwell disk is a rebadged Zipp, I’ve taken the liberty of labeling it as such):

http://i44.tinypic.com/10d75dw.png

To come up with this graph of hypothetical data, I converted the drag data from grams to CdA (assuming a tunnel speed of 30 mph and an English unit standard air density of 0.002378 slugs/ft^3) and substracted the difference between the 100 and 808 from the data obtained when using the pair of Blackwell wheels. I then further offset the data by the difference in CdA at 0 deg of yaw, under the assumption that any difference there is likely to be due to other factors (e.g., differences in tires, presence/absence of dimples) and not due to the bulge per se. (Note that the difference in tires is such that, if anything, I have probably undercorrected the data.)

In any case, as shown above the results now parallel each other much more closely, in particular in the way that CdA continues to decrease all the way out to 10 deg (note that since the wheel data provided by roady were obtained during ‘reverse’ sweeps, i.e., with decreasing yaw angle, I have only applied the correction to the comparable rider+bike data). The conclusion here, then, is as Tom A. just pointed out: most, albeit certainly not all, of the difference in what we found when comparing pairs of wheels seems to have been due to the difference in front wheels. In turn, this suggests that there is, in fact, limited (albeit not insignificant) benefit to using a ‘bulged’ disk on a P3, just as Gerard has stated. Due to the fact that this was not a planned comparison, however, one should not place too much faith in this conclusion.

FWIW…

Andy…just to be complete, but doesn’t that “vintage” of Zipp clincher disc have a smaller “bulge” (i.e. more like a 404 size width and depth) than the “1080 sized” bulge on the sub-9 disc (i.e. what most would consider a “bulged” disc? I would think that would make it’s performance closer to a flat disc, no?

I recall Jens stating that his Zipp clincher disc wasn’t as “fast” as his 808 wheel with a cover (the 808 w/cover being closer to a Sub-9 clincher in shape).

I’m just thinking that the majority of the difference you’re showing in that plot is from the front wheels alone…

I’m just thinking that the majority of the difference you’re showing in that plot is from the front wheels alone…
Yes, but hold that thought: I’ve been posting and editing to avoid losing all of my typing…

Andy…just to be complete, but doesn’t that “vintage” of Zipp clincher disc have a smaller “bulge” (i.e. more like a 404 size width and depth) than the “1080 sized” bulge on the sub-9 disc (i.e. what most would consider a “bulged” disc?

Correct.

I would think that would make it’s performance closer to a flat disc, no?

It would almost certainly be somewhere in between, but I don’t know whether it would be closer to a flat disk or a Sub 9 (at 0 to 10 deg of yaw). Can I Huck Finn you into digging up some data? :slight_smile:

I recall Jens stating that his Zipp clincher disc wasn’t as “fast” as his 808 wheel with a cover (the 808 w/cover being closer to a Sub-9 clincher in shape).

I wouldn’t necessarily dispute that. OTOH, I would submit that at least the data shown in the first plot are worthy of consideration, in that they were obtained in a wind tunnel at controlled yaw angles (and with a pedaling rider to boot).

I would submit that at least the data shown in the first plot are worthy of consideration, in that they were obtained in a wind tunnel at controlled yaw angles (and with a pedaling rider to boot).

…meaning that if minimal hysteresis is observed (at least out to 10 deg of yaw) when using a disk with a 404-depth bulge, how much benefit can there be to an even deeper bulge? The answer, I would submit, is “probably not much”, at least not until/unless you test at even higher yaw angles.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the protocol entailed a yaw sweep that went from 0 ->2.5 → 5 ->10 ->5 ->2.5 → 0 deg, with the left side of the bike facing the wind. As can be seen in the plot, when using the Zipp wheels there was little hysteresis in the data, with drag being quite similar at 2.5 and 5 deg regardless of the direction from which that yaw angle was approached. This indicates that minimal flow separation occurred; i.e., that the equipment used did a good job of ‘managing’ the air flow to prevent excessive turbulence.

In contrast, when using the Blackwell wheels, there was clearly some hysteresis. In particular, note how although CdA was higher even at 0 deg of yaw, the decrease that occurred at 2.5 and 5 deg of yaw on the way ‘out’ paralleled that found when using the Zipp wheels. CdA then leveled off, however, and was then clearly higher at 5 and 2.5 deg of yaw on the way ‘back’ before then dropping back down to equal that originally found at 0 deg.

Andy…I forget, but does the A&M tunnel allow for yaw sweeps without shutting down the air flow? In other words, is the bike and rider just rotated in place while the air continues to flow?

isn’t there an issue with the ‘1080’ bulge disks fitting a p3? and if yes, doesn’t that limit the choices to either a ‘404’ bulge or flat disk?

does the A&M tunnel allow for yaw sweeps without shutting down the air flow? In other words, is the bike and rider just rotated in place while the air continues to flow?

Yeah, it’s all on a turntable.

Now to anticipate another question: comparing different sets of wheels obviously requires having the rider climb off, taking the bike off the mount, repeating the tare, etc. The 1st and the 3rd took place between every practically every run, though, and the Zipp wheels were tested both before and after the Blackwells. IOW, there is little or no opportunity for the data to have been biased by poor experimental procedures, and the SD shown reflect all possible sources of variability.

isn’t there an issue with the ‘1080’ bulge disks fitting a p3? and if yes, doesn’t that limit the choices to either a ‘404’ bulge or flat disk?

According to Cervelo, a 1080 may or may not work on a P4, whereas a Sub 9 won’t:

http://www.cervelo.com/...s.aspx?bike=P42009#7

According to what I have read on this forum, the distance between the chainstays of a P4 is the same as it was on the P3.

funny that cervelo states ‘may or may not’ when it seems they could throw wheels on there for a definite answer.

not directing this at you ac, but maybe a retailer could clear the murky waters on which bulge disks (zipp and hed) will work with a p3 and/or p4, since there seems to be a lot of confusion…

funny that cervelo states ‘may or may not’ when it seems they could throw wheels on there for a definite answer.

I gather that you did not actually follow the link that I provided? It clearly states that whether or not a 1080 will work is “rider weight/riding style dependant (sic)” and that a Sub 9 “does not fit”.

Out of curiosity, lets say at 25mph how much does that 20 Cda Difference save over a 40k?

Ive tried to search for that before and can’t find anything

Out of curiosity, lets say at 25mph how much does that 20 Cda Difference save over a 40k?

Ive tried to search for that before and can’t find anything

The rule-of-thumb that I used for mental calculations is that a 0.1 lbs (~50 g) difference in drag at 30 mph is equivalent to a ~0.005 m^2 difference in CdA and/or a ~0.5 s/km difference in time at typica race speeds.

I’ve never had a problem with my sub-9 on my P3C. I do have mine setup so that there is plenty of room in front of the tire–not jammed all the way in. That might help with the chainstay clearance–the get much more narrow closer to the BB.

i followed the link but those notes aren’t exactly specific. i.e. is ‘rider weight’ 140 lbs or 160? this is a rhetorical question not directed at you but seems that cervelo could figure it out with minimal effort.

I’ve never had a problem with my sub-9 on my P3C. I do have mine setup so that there is plenty of room in front of the tire–not jammed all the way in. That might help with the chainstay clearance–the get much more narrow closer to the BB.

see what i mean? cervelo states the sub-9 won’t work while this poster states it does (at least on his p3, which might have the same chain stay clearance as p4).

i followed the link but those notes aren’t exactly specific. i.e. is ‘rider weight’ 140 lbs or 160? this is a rhetorical question not directed at you but seems that cervelo could figure it out with minimal effort.
And how do you propose that they account for differences in how much various people may flex the wheel (or frame), and/or manufacturing tolerances (which, for the wheel, are obviously out of their control)? It seems to me that they have done they best that they can (especially considering they don’t want or need consumers bitchin’ at them because they tried something that isn’t really recommended and then scratched their expensive new wheel).

I just sat in on a talk by Dave Ridley of Zipp at TriFest yesterday. He explained that the bulged wheels flex with rider weight and road surface bumps. This will cause the wheel to widen which would explain the “may or may not work”.

from that chart i can deduce that a sub-9 won’t work for big jens, and probably will for a dz-style of riding. regardless, i get that it’s based on multiple factors beyond cervelo’s control.

but how hard is to narrow down weight? if i ride more like dz but weigh 155, will it work? or do i need to weigh 135?

but more to the point, how does someone pick the fastest wheel for their p3? i’m not aware of too many retailers that will hand people 3-4 different disks to see if they’ll work. it gets even more confusing when one person says a sub-9 won’t work on their bike and then someone posts that they run it. if cervelo wants to truly serve their audience then this is info they’d come up with. and before you defend them, keep in mind they are the seller and i’m the consumer, i.e. if they want me to buy their product then they need to provide enough data to make an informed decision.

Have you seen the P4 chainstays in person? They’re much narrower than those on the P3… A big big difference in fit between the two frames.