P3: Just don't get it

I know that a large group in this forum are members of the disciples of Cervelo, but I don’t get the drooling over the P3 SL. The only performance-related difference is that it’s claimed to be 100g lighter… that’s it. Anodoized, of course, but that has no effect on performance. (I might even argue that an anodized surface is less aerodynamic for that matter.)

I’ve ridden long enough and had enough bikes to know that a claimed weight is only that… “claimed”. Years ago, while doing periodic maintentance, out of curiosity I started weighing frames on my gram scale. I’ve weighed enough of those frames to know that they can easily vary almost 100g from their published weights. And yes, I ride a 56cm and go with the mfg’s published weight for their 56cm bikes.

So, a heavy P3 SL can easily be 50g over, while a light P3 can easily be 50g under, making both frames the exact same weight!

I just don’t get it!

I think they’d have market even if it “may be” lighter. I’m sure the average weight is 100 gms lighter than the average painted bike. So, you are still ahead if you are a gram counter.

Can you feel 100 grams on a bike?

-SD

As a Cervelo owner I don’t understand why the buzz isn’t all about the new Softride based upon the aero testing. 82 seconds faster than a P3 over 40 kms. Whooooaaah!

you know, the real reason people would buy more P3 SL over regular P3’s is that the anodized black looks so much better than the grey, yellow, and red/white team colors. In fact, I dream about my next bike being a P3SL…hopefully sooner than later…or get a used P3 cheap of Ebay and get it repaited.

I think they’d have market even if it “may be” lighter. I’m sure the average weight is 100 gms lighter than the average painted bike. So, you are still ahead if you are a gram counter.

Can you feel 100 grams on a bike?

-SD

Well, that would have been another point, and the answer is no. You say “yes”?! Ok, can you feel the difference when your body weight fluctuates 100g up or down? Hell no.

And then the aero-thing, what with riders like Lindquist, Kraft, Hellriegel et. al riding round-tubed frames and dominating bike splits and all, it’s got to get you to realize the oft-repeated mantra of “it’s the motor, not the bike”.

You don’t have to get the P3…

Because I did!

Another reason not to get it :wink:

There is more to a bike than wieght.

Of course there it, but weight and anodizing is what Cervelo touted.

THATS the genius, with a new finish, whats old is new again. Kudos to their brilliance.

All of those winning riders would be faster on more aerodynamic bikes.

Are you arguing that they wouldn’t? Or that it doesn’t matter to their victory.

Do you think it matters to Chris Hoy?

-SD

THATS the genius, with a new finish, whats old is new again. Kudos to their brilliance. Crazy, huh?

All of those winning riders would be faster on more aerodynamic bikes. Not “might” but “would”? Really?! Why, and how much faster? Remember, we’re talking about human beings here.

Are you arguing that they wouldn’t? Or that it doesn’t matter to their victory. I’m arguing that to some extent weight and “aeroness” is blown way out of proportion.

Do you think it matters to Chris Hoy? The track guy? I don’t know how he feels about this. It doesn’t matter to me, and that’s really the bottom line.

-SD

Yea, Chris Hoy, the track world champ by .001 seconds. I think aerodynamics mattered to him on that day.

18mm tires? You bet
Aero helmet? Sure
Disc Wheels? No question
Skinsuit? Everyone else does
Shrink wrapping your feet/pedals? I think he was the only one that did that.

Did he win because his feet/pedals were more aerodynamic?

I think those winners you mentioned would be faster, sure. Over 40km could you measure it? sure. Would it make more than a handful of seconds difference? Not likely.

Yea, Chris Hoy, the track world champ by .001 seconds. I think aerodynamics mattered to him on that day.

18mm tires? You bet
Aero helmet? Sure
Disc Wheels? No question
Skinsuit? Everyone else does
Shrink wrapping your feet/pedals? I think he was the only one that did that.

Did he win because his feet/pedals were more aerodynamic?

I think those winners you mentioned would be faster, sure. Over 40km could you measure it? sure. Would it make more than a handful of seconds difference? Not likely.

Have you seen a team P3 in the flesh. Very sharp. Especially with vision bars and zipps.

In reply to

(I might even argue that an anodized surface is less aerodynamic for that matter.)

Huh? Anodizing ,versus bare, or a painted frame can have nothing to do with the aerodynamic properties of the frame

Styrrell

Have you heard of surface roughness? Or is it paint innocent until proven guilty?

I have indeed heard of surface roughness. I’ve spent more time looking at surface profile of bearing suraces than i care to remember. The surface roughness of anodized, bare and painted frames, even down to a sub micron scale can be contolled to whatever you want it to be. In other words surface roughness is not an inherent property of anodized or painted surfaces.

Styrrell

Hoy also most likely has the luxury of a frame that fits him perfectly and is tuned totally to his riding style/wattage/etc.

Aerondynamics mattered to him, for sure. But I bet he was also mighty concerned about getting all of his 1XYZ watts to the pedals as well.

As I like to point out so often, buying a trick aero bike is not as important as buying a frame that fits properly. If your motor can work most effciently, you will be better served than riding on an aero frame.

This isn’t to say that can’t have an aero bike that fits well. But it might not be as good a fit as a true custom bike, with tubes that fit your power/weight/style/etc., and you may not realize the full potential of the aerodynamic savings due to a lower wattage output.

Hmm, I gotta chime in here as a big Cervelo owner, retailer and believer.

The P3 is solid for a number of reasons in my opinion. It is aero (according to some tests and based on my expereince- which is utterly subjective), has oddly good ride characteristics including comfort and handling and, most importantly to me, is a bike where you can acheive a very high performance posture or position.

Additionally, our experience has been that the bike is mechanically very dependable. We have had absolutely zero frame failures of any kind. The dropouts work well, the frames are consistently in good alignment so the components work well, the aero seatpost clamp is entirely trouble free from our experience (unlike some others from other companies) and the head tube is a standard 1" steer tube, which I like for aero characteristics (that said, I like the Kuota with the massive 1&1/4" lower headset race and 1&1/8" upper race because it is so nice and stiff. Probably not too aero though).

I’m on my 2nd P3. I had a P3 that I set up in a kind of “Bjorn” like position. I didn’t care for that position quite predictably but it was a worthwhile fitting experiement. My 2nd P3 is a new P3SL I am building now. I like the matt black appearance. I’m not too concerned if whatever finish they put on it makes it lighter or faster. The original version was plenty fast enough for me.

It’s also worth pointing out that the P3 is one of very few bikes used stock by sponsored Tour de France teams in time trial stages. I know how that equipment game works, and that is quite a coup on Cervelo’s part. That is extremely unusual in the entire history of the Tour de France.

Mostly though, I ride a lot of very nice bikes often. I ride my own, which I change frequently, and I ride customer’s bikes going out the door. I also have to be responsible for the mechanical integrity of a bike that a customer is pinning their hopes for an important race on.

I know, based on our experience in our store and my own personal experience, that a Cervelo P3 is dependable. When I sell one I don’t worry.

From a business perspective, the staff at Cervelo are pleasant to work with. They are kind, courteous and professional. They have helped me build my business. They have consistently demonstrated commitment to us and honored that commitment when other vendors have, quite frankly, dicked us around. That also adds value to our relationship with Cervelo and my support of the brand.

To me, that is what the big deal about Cervelo is.

OK, you got your Cervelo ass-kissing post in :wink: My post, however, was about how I don’t understand all the drooling about a bike that is only claimed to be 100g lighter than it’s predecessor.

Tom,

Yer building up a new P3SL (vs. yer “old” regular P3) because you like the color. And of course, because you can, an obviously awesome perk of owning a LBS. :wink: (I’ve had, and still have, only 3 bikes in the last 11 yrs of avid riding - so yes, I’m kinda jealous of those who get new bikes all the time )

But, the original post was asking if there are any true performance gains w/ the P3SL vs. P3 (not whether Cervelo is a good brand or if they make quality bikes, etc. - that seems to be a well known given at this point), other than the claimed 100 g difference - so, is there?

I doubt it, but they do look awful stylie, so if it looks faster, and you feel faster, then who is to say that you aren’t faster? Often times a new bike will make you “faster” just because you are psyched to ride it, and ride more due to that.

PS - Did you get my message? I wanted to buy some Tri tidbits from yer website, and can’t figger out how to do so. Am I missing something?

Ride on-

Mike

I don’t understand all the drooling about a bike that is only claimed to be 100g lighter than it’s predecessor

It’s new (which as superdave alluded, has value in and of itself), costs the same, it was showcased in the TdF, and by far most importantly, it’s black.

Scott

Hey Murphy’s Law,

Yup, you got a point. I just really like the bike for a number of reasons. But yeah, I hear you.

I didn’t see your note. We now use the Qurb spam filter. E-mail senders have to be approved senders or the message goes into a junk box.

I’ll look for it.