Out of T2 Help

Triathlon Forum
1

Okay, so this season is just about over for me (I have SOS this weekend and I’m done with races). I had high hopes but fell short of completing my objectives.

Last year was all about finishing. This year was about qualifying for Clearwater. I missed it…2 times…for the same reason.

For Eagleman and Timberman, I was 30 minutes out of the water, 2:30 off the bike. Start my first 4 miles on the run at 7 minute pace and then…done, game over, start the death march.

I did the same thing at IM Lake Placid. Great swim, great bike, disasterous run. Yet when I run during training or during a run race, I’m a 7 to 7:30 pace.

I had a coach. I performed my long rides and long runs and my bricks. What is worse is that I was able to go for runs the very next day (yes, even after Lake Placid I did a local Sprint Tri and came in 8th). My legs felt fine during the races and after. I just couldn’t push it during the race.

So now that I’m heading into the long base training season, what am I looking at to fix this problem? Better coach? More time on the bike? More time on the track? A nutritionist? A psychologist?

What is it that gets a person off a hard ride and gets them into the run and maintain a good race pace?

Please help, I don’t want to waste another year.

2

Do you stop because it hurts too much or do you stop from cramps? Why exactly are you death marching?

3

Nope, no cramps. No stomach issues. Peeing is not a problem. I don’t feel hungry and I’m not terribley thirsty. No pain to speak of. My heart rate is fine, around 155 to 165, which is normal race running rate for me.

The only thing I feel is over-heated and I can’t cool down. No matter how much water I put over my head or sponges I take.

4

you do a standalone run at 7min miles and you expect to do that in a half ironman too?

if 7min miles is what it will take to meet your goals you just need to get way more fit, on the bike and the run.

got any weight to lose?

5

At 5’9" weighing 158, yeah, I could probably drop 15 pounds.

And no, I would like to do at least a 7:45 pace at a half iron. My first couple miles are at 7 to 7:15, but then quickly drops until the result of 9:40+ happens.

6

Do you race/train with a power meter? The endurance nation has a good powerpoint on racing and trianing with a powermeter. What is your run time in 70.3. Every try riding say 5-10 min slower to see how that effects your run? Your bike should set up your run. It almost sounds like your riding to hard. That and you could try to take the first 4 miles a little slower 7:30-08:00. Then after 4 miles work into your race pace. Then you can pace all the people that blew up like you used to.

7

I was questioning the tactics of how hard to push on the bike versus run. In my head, in a 70.3 bike distance of 56 miles, it would make more sense to me that going 1 mph faster on the bike would still yield a better overall time than going 30 seconds faster per mile run pace. 1 mph yields 8 minutes (over 56 miles). 30 seconds yields about 6.5 minutes (over a 13.1).

And it seems to me that 1 mph faster on the bike is easier to do than 30 seconds per mile faster on the run.

So with that in mind, should I really go easier on the bike?

I want to train over the next 6 months to go 23 mph on the bike instead of 22 AND be able to pull off a 7:30 run pace over a half iron. And maintain swim.

Is the answer to lose the 15 pounds? Does that now sacrafice storage for energy over a 5 hour day?

8

"And no, I would like to do at least a 7:45 pace at a half iron. My first couple miles are at 7 to 7:15, but then quickly drops until the result of 9:40+ happens. "

Red-lining out of T2 in a HIM is going to end up kicking you in the nuts every time. It is very hard to come busting out of T2 and take it “easy”. I don’t think I’ve ever done a race where I haven’t gotten to the first mile marker and thought “crap…too fast” even if I felt like I was taking it easy. I’m working on it though…

I’m not a huge fan of GPS watches, but if they had one that I could program to give me a shock if I went under my goal pace for the first few miles of a race I’d probably buy it.

9

I would try starting at 8:00 pace for the first couple miles next time

then slowly speed up to 7:45

At 5’9" weighing 158, yeah, I could probably drop 15 pounds.

And no, I would like to do at least a 7:45 pace at a half iron. My first couple miles are at 7 to 7:15, but then quickly drops until the result of 9:40+ happens.

10

Is the answer to lose the 15 pounds? Does that now sacrafice storage for energy over a 5 hour day?

no, look a the pros, they are skeeeny

11

At 5’9" weighing 158, yeah, I could probably drop 15 pounds.

And no, I would like to do at least a 7:45 pace at a half iron. My first couple miles are at 7 to 7:15, but then quickly drops until the result of 9:40+ happens.

I don’t know if dropping another 15 pounds is your answer… …5’9" and 145…? Yikes… I’m 5’10" / 165. You don’t want to lose the proper musculature, that will make things worse… No…? You still have to swim and ride, and no look like a coat hanger - After all this is a hobby…

Just my opinion…

12

I was questioning the tactics of how hard to push on the bike versus run. In my head, in a 70.3 bike distance of 56 miles, it would make more sense to me that going 1 mph faster on the bike would still yield a better overall time than going 30 seconds faster per mile run pace. 1 mph yields 8 minutes (over 56 miles). 30 seconds yields about 6.5 minutes (over a 13.1).

And it seems to me that 1 mph faster on the bike is easier to do than 30 seconds per mile faster on the run.

So with that in mind, should I really go easier on the bike?

Interesting logic and I can see why you would think that. But that extra 1mph on the bike could be cooking you more than you think and causing your crappy runs. It looks like your theory of going faster on the bike than the run so far hasn’t worked out for you so it may be time to dial back the bike and then see how the run goes?

13

plus you don’t need to go 1mph slower to save a lot of energy on the bike.

0.25mph slower will be a fair bit less wattage

I was questioning the tactics of how hard to push on the bike versus run. In my head, in a 70.3 bike distance of 56 miles, it would make more sense to me that going 1 mph faster on the bike would still yield a better overall time than going 30 seconds faster per mile run pace. 1 mph yields 8 minutes (over 56 miles). 30 seconds yields about 6.5 minutes (over a 13.1).

And it seems to me that 1 mph faster on the bike is easier to do than 30 seconds per mile faster on the run.

So with that in mind, should I really go easier on the bike?

Interesting logic and I can see why you would think that. But that extra 1mph on the bike could be cooking you more than you think and causing your crappy runs. It looks like your theory of going faster on the bike than the run so far hasn’t worked out for you so it may be time to dial back the bike and then see how the run goes?

14

Totally agree that what I did this year didn’t work for me. However, just dialing back on the bike “could” help the run, but I’m looking to see how to improve the run without dialing back the bike.

I’m not sure of what my actual weakness is. Just because I do well on the bike for 56 miles, does that mean that I don’t have to worry about the bike portion training anymore? Or does it mean that I need to do that much more bike trianing so I’m not so burnt up for the run? Or do I need to learn bike yoga and relax myself 10 minutes before the run?

At eagleman, my legs and hips cramped up and that is what really slowed me down. I was taught how to stretch the hams on the bike (unclip, rest foot on saddle and lean forward). That was a great lesson that really helped for THAT situation. Now I need to figure out this T2 situation, but I don’t know where to begin.

The obvious choice is to get another coach that can help with this, but I’ve never interviewed a coach before. My coach now is fine, but seems to be lacking this key ingredient.

Besides, you guys know everything anyways!!! And no, my seat is NOT too high.

15

Nope, no cramps. No stomach issues. Peeing is not a problem. I don’t feel hungry and I’m not terribley thirsty. No pain to speak of. My heart rate is fine, around 155 to 165, which is normal race running rate for me.

The only thing I feel is over-heated and I can’t cool down. No matter how much water I put over my head or sponges I take.
Sounds to me like you just need to suck it up, princess.

16

I hate to fall back on this but then you need to run a lot more. I would spend your “off-season” running your ass off. :slight_smile:

17

Tried that already, didn’t work. Besides my tiara keeps falling off.
I wish I could suck it up, that’s why I’m wondering if it’s a mental thing. I feel like I could run another 13.1 miles the next day, so I can’t be taxing my muscles. I ate really well leading into Timberman, so I can’t see nutrition being a problem.

Maybe I need a shrink?

18

Execution of races of this distance is very underrated. You are probably riding too fast, and you are definitely running too fast out of T2. If you wanted to run an open half marathon at 7min pace, would you run the first 5K under 20min? No. But that’s what you are doing in your halfs and IMs. It’s no wonder you blow up.

It isn’t necessarily mental strength to keep going when the going gets tough, sometimes it’s mental strength to slow down early so you don’t have to slow down late.

19

Tried that already, didn’t work. Besides my tiara keeps falling off.
I wish I could suck it up, that’s why I’m wondering if it’s a mental thing. I feel like I could run another 13.1 miles the next day, so I can’t be taxing my muscles. I ate really well leading into Timberman, so I can’t see nutrition being a problem.

Maybe I need a shrink?
For what it’s worth, the Timberman run was hellishly humid and hot. I did just the run – for a relay team – and ran 9 minutes slower than my half marathon PR. In fact, I ran slower than I did 3 years ago when I did the whole triathlon.

20

Totally agree that what I did this year didn’t work for me. However, just dialing back on the bike “could” help the run, but I’m looking to see how to improve the run without dialing back the bike.

I’m not sure of what my actual weakness is. Just because I do well on the bike for 56 miles, does that mean that I don’t have to worry about the bike portion training anymore? Or does it mean that I need to do that much more bike trianing so I’m not so burnt up for the run? Or do I need to learn bike yoga and relax myself 10 minutes before the run?

At eagleman, my legs and hips cramped up and that is what really slowed me down. I was taught how to stretch the hams on the bike (unclip, rest foot on saddle and lean forward). That was a great lesson that really helped for THAT situation. Now I need to figure out this T2 situation, but I don’t know where to begin.

The obvious choice is to get another coach that can help with this, but I’ve never interviewed a coach before. My coach now is fine, but seems to be lacking this key ingredient.

Besides, you guys know everything anyways!!! And no, my seat is NOT too high.

I’m sure your coach isn’t a wal-mart greeter that just decided to try coaching one day. :wink:
Have you had this discussion with him/her and gotten any suggestions?

Now on to the question. running well isn’t just a question of being a good runner, but you must also be a good rider. I’d say that how well you run off the bike is something like 50/50…

Now I can’t evaluate your bike pacing or run pacing without knowing more about you.

Here are a couple of rules-of-thumb from my own crazy theories:

In a triathlon, you should start as a ballpark pacing guide the pace that you could/would be able to cover twice the distance in a stand-alone race.
So this would mean that your bike pace should be at the rate you could sustain for 110 miles if it were a stand-alone 110 mile TT.

Same on the run. Your run pace should be what you could maintain for a stand-alone marathon.

do you know how fast you can run a stand-alone marathon? I cannot imagine ever running in a half marathon at a pace that I didn’t feel like I could sustain all day long (that for the first half of it anyway).

Here’s a bit of race pace advice for you to use in future races regardless…don’t use your watch/gps on the run at all. Do NOT target a certain pace and use any outside assistance to determine your pace. Run by feel only (for the first half especially). And I don’t mean the ‘feel’ of leg speed, I mean the ‘feel’ of your cardiovascular system.

Despite what pace you may or may not find you can run…on those days you fared so poorly, it should have been obvious in the first mile that it was a pace you couldn’t maintain. Even if you are sorely uncondition or unprepared or overcooked…if you were to use the perceived effort approach to your pacing you would have self-selected an 8:45 pace or so and your end result would have been better.

Another way of looking at it is by heart rate. In a 5+ hour race your heart rate shouldn’t be above 150 until probably the last 30-45 minutes. (with room to vary due to your specific HR profile).