Why do we (I am a Catholic - so lets say we is all Christians). These are serious questions, from a life long Catholic not a troll;
As for one and two, we don’t really know when he was born. Any choice is arbitrary. Nothing wrong with the one picked.
As for two, we actually celebrate his resurrection more than his death. The day of the week is very important in that regard, so that is what tracks. The exact date is unknown anyway so see above.
I thought as sensitive, understaniding and enlightened people, we were supposed to understand other cultures and adopt to them such that we don’t hold our own culture to be in any way superior. Since our own history is a bit vague anyway, the logical thing is to adapt to foreign cultures and traditions while still bringing our desired message.
Easter is the most important Christian holiday. It is the celebration of his resurrection, not his death.
Yes, I did not say Easter was not the most important holiday. I said biggest, and in terms of observance and celebration, at least in my region, we have far more people at mass than on Easter Sunday and the amount of money collected is far more than Easter, I will stand by my question and leave it as the biggest day.
Well, since he died 3 days before the Resurrection and that day is floating the day of his death is also floating. Good Friday is a form of a somber celebration, But to attempt to keep this on point I will change the original question to Resurrection.
Art,
From the stories in the Bible, many facts can be laid out September appears to be the month of his birth. And from this website. 29th of Sept. http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm Now they did some speculating at that but lets say the mid to end of Sept.
It also explains Dec 25 “In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and became the rule in the West in 435 when the first “Christ mass” was officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, “to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the ‘Invincible Sun’ Mithras, the conqueror of darkness” (Manual of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).”
Now this site states Sept 11 (kinda freaky)
And another for Sept 15th
EDIT: Oops sorry Art I brought some facts again. Will go looking as to why Easter is a floating date and not a fixed one.
My wife went digging in her catechism book and said that Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after a full moon after the vernal equinox… Councli of Nicea decided this in 325.
Well, you have made my point. We don’t know when he was born. I understand that some put forth specific theories about specific times of year, and those theories could even be right. Regardless, the specific choice is arbitrary. Any choice is fine, and if it was set by custom to coopt a pagan holiday, so what?
I don’t know that the Bible anywhere suggests that we celebrate the birth of Christ. It is the Resurrection that is a big deal. The celebration of his birth was a custom adopted later. I don’t really see a problem with that.
Yes, I did not say Easter was not the most important holiday. I said biggest, and in terms of observance and celebration, at least in my region, we have far more people at mass than on Easter Sunday and the amount of money collected is far more than Easter, I will stand by my question and leave it as the biggest day.
Well, since he died 3 days before the Resurrection and that day is floating the day of his death is also floating. Good Friday is a form of a somber celebration, But to attempt to keep this on point I will change the original question to Resurrection.
Art,
From the stories in the Bible, many facts can be laid out September appears to be the month of his birth. And from this website. 29th of Sept. http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm Now they did some speculating at that but lets say the mid to end of Sept.
It also explains Dec 25 “In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and became the rule in the West in 435 when the first “Christ mass” was officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, “to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the ‘Invincible Sun’ Mithras, the conqueror of darkness” (Manual of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).”
Now this site states Sept 11 (kinda freaky)
And another for Sept 15th
EDIT: Oops sorry Art I brought some facts again. Will go looking as to why Easter is a floating date and not a fixed one.
What? The Catholic Church manipulated the facts to suit its own agenda? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.
Way back when, Easter was fixed on the calendar. Unfortunately, the calendar in those days didn’t match up well with reality: they didn’t account for the fact that the solar year wasn’t an integral number of days. So, what used to be a spring celebration was moving, about a month every century, into other parts of the year. So, they fixed it to be the first Sunday following the first full moon following the vernal equinox.
In any case, it’s more important to observe the event, not the date of the event. If someone’s child was born on February 29, I suspect the parents would celebrate the child’s birthday every year, despite it being on the “wrong day” three times out of four. What’s so important about hitting the date that the Earth is in the same place in it’s orbit around the Sun?
Thanks Ken. I always thought it was odd, that one was a fixed Date, and the other a fixed solar event. Now I know.
DavHamm,
As a Catholic (and I am as well) you should not complain about a roving holiday, especially one that lands on a Sunday. Even my kids could tell you that. This Christmas is the perfect example. You’ve got to go to Church on Sunday (4th Sunday of Advent) and then turn around and go Christmas day too. Yikes!
Bernie
I think it was the fixed date on (thats on a made up date anyhow) that is more my issue. Since the Major religous celebration is on a floating date, why not his birth also Damn Romans.
Well maybe I have watched Pirates of the Carrabean too many times, but I think that it is much like ‘the pirate code’, more really guidelines than actual rules. The holidays are really more about the idea (well they are supposed to be).
Yes, we don’t really know when Christ was born. Infact the whole yearly calander is off by about two years - we think. As for the celebration of Christmas, it was rescheduled to compete with the prominant Pegan holiday of somthing else. In anycase, just because the date may be bogus, it soes not mena that the idea is.
Although on a side note the only thing that I I could think of after my Christmas mass was that the whole deal is based on what abunch of crazy people were talking about 2000 years ago. go figure. I’m catholic btw
**3) Why do lots of the stories and attributes of Christ mimic those of other Pegan gods? **
I’m calling you on this one. Give us examples/stories of Christ mimicing other Pagan Gods. (Seriously).
What other God assumes human form for the sole purpose of acting as a sacrificial lamb enduring a horribly embarassing, demeaning, and grotesque death (Again, seriously).
I hear these “claims” of “similarities” quite often, yet upon closer review the “similarities” aren’t all that similar. I’m not saying there aren’t similarities as there will be some similarities with all “worshipped beings”, but Christ as mimic is one that doesn’t hold water under examination.
Please post these stories and examples. I’m interested. Edit: I couldn’t resist, I found a couple of articles from Christian think tank and tektonics.org regarding the situation. I’ve seen this issue brought up time and time again, and from this perspective, there’s nothing for Christians to worry about once the “god storoes/history/backgrounds are compared”.
Here’s a link to a LONG and IN-DEPTH examination of the issue “Copycat Christ”. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
A related link (one of my favs … just find it interesting): The Impossible Faith: How Not to Start a Religion. http://www.tektonics.org/print.php4
**Why do lots of the stories and attributes of Christ mimic those of other Pegan gods? **
Could you explain this point? My guess is that there are lots of stories that mimic Christ but not the other way around. I can’t recall a single Pagan God that was resurrected.
Also, does it really matter if we have the exact date for Christ’s birth?
My brother adopted a child from Russia and there is no exact record of his birthdate so they made an educated guess based on his size and celebrate that date. The celebration is for his birth and it really doesn’t matter if it is the exact date.
If people’s faith is dependent on knowing the exact date of his birth, then it’s really not a lot of faith.
As a side note, I am beginning to think that Christians put too much emphasis (formerly myself included) on the actual “celebration” of these two events. Christ did not command us to do this, or even request it.
Truth be told, the reason we celebrate these holidays (and when we do) is to overshadow the pagan holidays in those seasons.
I also wonder whether Christ would want us to celebrate those holidays in the manner we do. They seem to more self celebratory holidays than actual worship and remembrance (even Easter).
I think Christ would want us to take all that energy we put into two celebratory events, and space them out over a yearful of loving God and helping others (bringing Glory to God).
I’m reminded of a joke about a churh that had a squirrel problem. They couldn’t get rid of these darn squirrels no matter what they tried. Finally, someone suggested, “make them baptists, then we’ll only see them twice a year.” Our babpotist pastor told us that joke one morning.
Easter service bothers me a bit because it seems to have turned into a “look at how much we spent on these awesome looking clothes” rather actually going to church to remember and celebrate the Resurrection. I say that as someone that dresses up to the hilt in a light colored suit with tradition lavender shirt and dark purple die (or powder blue or some other springy pastel color), so I’m not addressing other people, but including myself in the madness.
We openly complain about the Joel Osteen type of preaching which promises “prosperity” to the “true” believers, and the view that God is really a genie in a bottle … but then we also do things that seem to completely incongruent with the teaching of Christ … and we do them, “in the name of Christ” (or in honor of Christ).
Living a Christian life is very difficult, and focusing on daily activities versus two major holidays is also a challenge. I guess that’s what I’m getting at.
if you’re really curious about the issue, stuff like the calculation of the date of Easter and how to sync lunar and solar calendars, E.G. Richard’s book Mapping Time is really quite good. I think it explains the miscalculation of Jesus’ birth, too (although it’s been 7 years since I read it). Something about two different ways of dating events in the Roman empire.
There’s also a book called “Trahir le Temps” (it’s in French, sorry) that has a chapter exploring the question, what if we dated everything from the resurrection, instead of from the birth? (Making WWI a 19th c event, etc).
The BC/AD system, btw, dates from sometime in the 5th century, I think - something surprisingly late).
There are lots and lots of stories of pagan gods, so any other story will mimic some pagan stories. It’s like finding parallels for human behavior in nature. If you look for it, you’ll find some animal that fits your purposes.
-charles