The particulars:
-male age 41. Once upon time was a competitive swimmer.
-good pool swimmer, lousy open water swimmer.
-stroke count when tired is ~14 per 25m.
-typical ‘threshold’ workout: 25X100m on 1:25. Holding 18’s -20’s. (just starting to dabble with 10X100m on 1:20)
-pool sprint speed is roughly 59s for 100m… so let’s assume my mechanics are ok.
-really only willing to swim 3X to a MAX of 4 times a week. (2.5 to 3.5k) 2 or 3 pool workouts and 1 open water/ week.
Problem: Despite having swam more and doing more threshold workouts, my open water swimming has completely stagnated.
In previous years, I’ve swam considerbly less and faired better. (frustrating to say the least)
Typically coming out with a 1:30/100m or even slower pace. Doesn’t matter if it’s a sprint or HIM - pace is generally the same.
Was really looking to bring it up a notch this year, but to no avail.
Misc: I don’t like wetsuits. I feel unnaturally ‘floaty’, can’t kick worth a damn while wearing one and feels restrictive despite
fitting ‘well’ and being put on correctly.
So the question is what the heck do I need to do bring my swim to sub 1:25/100m pace? Keep at it? Patience? More theshold?
Faster sets?
Cheers,
Darren
Your pool speed is fine so it’s not your workouts there, but getting comfy swimming in OW, sighting, learning to swim in the wetsuit.
IOW get out in open water and do more of your swimming there. Your pool speed should transfer. You are probably at a slight disadvantage in OW because of no flip turns ,which I assume you’re good at.
Do you usually take such little rest? you’re really just swimming a few thousand straight.
tigerchik will totally disagree with this, but it sould like you need to change paces in the workouts and rest more. big sets of 100-200s are great and all, but you need to change paces as well. I would start working on DPS and stroke rate at high speeds with more rest. 25’s, 50’s and 75’s all out with more rest. At least once a week.
The key to me is that you have stagnated. Assuming your mechanics are OK, you need to infuse some pace changes into the workouts.
Sets like:
8x75 all out on 1:15-1:30
200 at goal race pace
8x50 all out on 1:00
200 at goal race pace
8X25 sprint like mad on :40
200 at goal race pace
Take 1:00 after each 8x. Keep stroke count low, but keep good stroke rate.
Also, I wouldn’t drop the interval you have, I would increase it and swim faster. Hold 15-17 and bump the interval to 1:30.
working on open water skills is naturally a needed thing, but given the info you posted, I think its the workouts.
the point he makes is in the 3rd paragraph (headed “Now, on to Fundamental #2 Swim with your Body.”)
the gist is that if you swim with a hip-driven stroke, the wetsuit hinders you - so you are probably better off (as a triathlete) with a shoulder-driven stroke (as the wetsuit is less likely to hinder this technique).
how do you do that - well, i’m not sure i could explain it in a post, but you may do well to find a good coach, or perhaps you can read hall’s post and get a good idea.
Do you do any longer intervals? I’m 1:20/100yrd pace in Olympic distance and the inclusion of interval workouts w/repeats of 400,500, 800, and 1000 yrds (with the last 100-300 of each interval at a much harder effort), I believe, really helped me increase my pace from 1:30/100 yrd. Just a thought.
Fair enough. I’m just used to being on deck and trying to get swimmers to change paces. Using wording like ALL OUT gets them swimming harder. I would say swim as fast as you can and HOLD the same pace for each 75-50 through the entire workout. So if you’re getting in at :50 for a 75, keep that pace up. If you start slipping to 55 toward the end, then next time try and hit all 52-3.
How about “as fast a pace as you can hold throughout the set, given the interval”
Basic point is swim faster, take more rest.
I like to let the swimmer dictate the pace, not the interval. Once you are taking less than 10 seconds rest, you’re just working on basic swim fitness. Great to do, but we all need some power and speed. I would submit that 59 for a 100 sprint for someone who can hold 17’s on a 25 interval, is NOT good sprinting speed. I would expect something more in the low 50’s.
Are you sure you have a properly fitted wetsuit?
You say it feels “restrictive despite fitting well”. But a good-fitting wetsuit will not be restrictive. It will be tight, like a second skin, but it shouldn’t restrict your motion at all. And make sure to put it on properly. Pull the crotch all the way up, and pull extra arm material up to your shoulders.
You also don’t need to kick as much with a wetsuit. You said your kick feels useless, and to a certain extent it is. OW swimming doesn’t require the same type of kick as pool swimming. Anything more than keeping your hips up, and your kick is really just burning energy. The most common idea is to aim for a two-beat kick for distance swims.
Try mixing it up more than just lots of 100s. Some days do short, fast workouts with 25’s-100’s. Other days do longer sets of 200’s, 500’s, etc. Do some technique work on some days. And get some open water time in.
Do some drills to aid your OW swimming. Practice swimming head up. Practice sighting. Try swimming laps with your eyes closed to see if you stay straight.
DesertDude did a field test and he talked about a suit that has a lot more shoulder flexability. Being a long time swimmer also, I hate wetsuits about as much as you do, but his review will push me to buy a new one next year just to try the design. Can’t remember the brand name, but you can find it in his blog.
Sounds like you don’t need to train more, you just need to learn how to race. I seldom train at your level and sure can’t break 60 sec. off the wall but maybe half my races I am “up there” (5th or 6th in AG at 08 Nats in 21-flat; Yesterday oly I was 30-40 sec. behind some people who can swim mid 20s in halfs). In my better swims, I swam straight, drafted and sighted well. In my slower swims, I failed to do those things well. That’s what you have to learn how to do … I also don’t believe in holding much back during the swim, especially sprints and olys. I start strong and I lay off just a little in the middle and breath more toward the end, but usually I go 95% of what I think I can do if the race was just the swim. Swimming is so different from B & R I don’t see it affecting the next two segments.
You have part of the answer in your post. As a athlete, when you have area that you dislike…they are often the place where you need to put more focus.
So, Wetsuits. If most of your race are wetsuits, i would put you in open water 2 to 3 times a week and make you learn to be good and love the wetsuit. .You have right there 5 sec by 100m that you can gain by learning a few things/proper technic about swimming with wetsuits.
To prepare you for that, in the winter.
-paddle work
-lots of pull sets
-adressing your weakness in the water… and of course… a well thought plan going from general to specific
doing those things… you can be A Lot faster next season and more importantly, be less fatigue when you jump on the bike…
wetsuit can become your best friend even if you are a world class swimmer…just need to learn about it…
Read this…the synergy suit was the one I was thinking of. I’m that guy with broad shoulders and a good swim stroke who needs a lot of flexability in a suit.
Are you sure you have a properly fitted wetsuit?
You say it feels “restrictive despite fitting well”. But a good-fitting wetsuit will not be restrictive. It will be tight, like a second skin, but it shouldn’t restrict your motion at all. And make sure to put it on properly. Pull the crotch all the way up, and pull extra arm material up to your shoulders.
You also don’t need to kick as much with a wetsuit. You said your kick feels useless, and to a certain extent it is. OW swimming doesn’t require the same type of kick as pool swimming. Anything more than keeping your hips up, and your kick is really just burning energy. The most common idea is to aim for a two-beat kick for distance swims.
Try mixing it up more than just lots of 100s. Some days do short, fast workouts with 25’s-100’s. Other days do longer sets of 200’s, 500’s, etc. Do some technique work on some days. And get some open water time in.
Do some drills to aid your OW swimming. Practice swimming head up. Practice sighting. Try swimming laps with your eyes closed to see if you stay straight.
well, lets be clear and honest. What ever brand of wetsuit you use… if you are a good swimmer, you will definitly feel the restrictive aspect of a wetsuit. It s still make you faster then without it but there is restriction happening in shoulders and i sure can feel it a lot early in the season and some wetsuit specific strenght need to be build up to overcome this…
See, I’m not so sure I agree with that.
I am a swimmer, and I don’t really notice any wetsuit restriction. And I have never had to develop any wetsuit specific strength to use it.
Sure, my wetsuit feels tight and restrictive out of the water, but as soon as I get in and start swimming, I hardly notice it at all.
Just my n=1 experience. It may be possible that I lucked into having a body shape that perfectly fits my suit, who knows.
If you are only going to swim three times a week make sure you get in 20 - 30 minutes of long conditioning in each session. Also can you swim 75 minutes three days a week? Swimming 75 minutes three days a week is a good minimum to get better for your level.
Clearly your endurance is off. It should be closer to 4’30" for an all out 400 meter and 18’ for 1500 meters. And your T-30 (valuable race speed for 750 - 1500 and wetsuit 1900) should be about 1’15" per 100 meters. Even on this volume you should be able to get there.
My main advice as a session for you would be 10 x 200 where you leave at 3’00" and come in around 2’30"(+/- 5 s). Obviously now that is to fast for now aim 2’45". Better to do it a bit slower but right and progress, you have a whole winter to develop speed in the pool. This workout shouldn’t feel hard more of an easyish endurance workout. The other could be 6 x 400 at 5’00" off at 5’30" but again build. Start at 5’30" off at 6’00". The third day i would just swim a continuous easyish swim say 2100 meters in 30 minutes and build this to 2200 meters (you could do this with paddles). Most other swimming should be easy to support those workouts like 1’30" - 1’35" per 100 meters i know that is slow but that is about right.
You could also add some speedwork in but nothing hard just a broken 200 aka 4 x 50 off every minute where you aim at 35" for now but drop to 30 - 31". The rest should be very easy it could be easy leg work with fins some back even butterfly of 25’s if they come easy or some easy 100’s on 1’35" base. It is just general endurance for your main sets.
I think paddles are a heaven for low mileage swimmers. I use them at times when work and school get in the way of swimming a lot (with running and weights). I also try to aim to do at least 20 - 30 minutes of broken continuous work in each workout but with paddles then. It is fast but not particulary hard. The rest is easy then.
If i have time my volume goes up to over 16 000 meters quickly. Volume works let me tell you that i have done 8 lows in a sprint triathlon blazing the competition whilst only swimming mediocore 100 meter times. But i did do stuff like 10 x 400 off every 6’.
This advice goes to all triathletes that want to improve on swimming just swim 30 minutes continuously with maybe 4 - 5 short breaks of 30" included or maybe 10 breaks of 15" and don’t see at the pace if you are a poor triathlete just stop whenever you start to strain. This is how i train beginners. For more advanced swimmers 10 x 200 is a good start.
I had a similar problem. I am a former swimmer (still would consider myself a swimmer that does triathlons, not a triathlete) and invested in a DeSoto in 2006 to use for IMLP. I have short legs relative to my torso and shoulders so thought the two piece would work better for me. I didn’t feel comfortable in the suit and was relatively unhappy with my swim.
After two years of swimming in the DeSoto and never feeling right in the wetsuit, I was convinced me to try a different suit, a Nineteen Frequency.
After three strokes, I knew this suit fit me better. At IMLP 2008 - despite swimming way less (using limited time on running) swam a full 2 min faster.
Just take a few different wetsuits out for a spin. Like Bikes, different suits fit different swimmers better and the fit can make a huge difference. Of course that being said, even just the right size in a brand can make a huge difference.
BTW, just to be clear, I don’t have any hard feelings or think the DeSoto suit is inferior in anyway. The suit just didn’t fit me right.
So the question is what the heck do I need to do bring my swim to sub 1:25/100m pace? Keep at it? Patience? More theshold?
Faster sets?
Cheers,
Darren
Hi Darren
Don’t panic, this is something I see quite often and I can sympathise with how frustrating it must be.
Here are a few pointers which I’m hoping will either help you straight away or give you a little food for thought based on your OP.
Ok so you have a reasonable stroke count - nice long, smooth stroke. Great. How tall are you? Do you notice you fair relatively worse in really rough open water or just open water in general? What is your actual stroke RATE per minute when swimming at 1:20 per 100m pace? Take a look at this article, could this be you? http://www.swimsmooth.com/slowsr_adv.html Oftentimes we think or may be told that our stroke technique / mechanics are good and for all intents and purposes yours must be reasonable to be swimming as quick in the pool as you are doing. However, could your stroke be overly long for you and have a prominent deadspot from overgliding which results in a lack of momentum and fluidity in the open water? Well worth checking.
I agree with many of the other posters above about introducing a slightly different way of working your interval sets or at least adding an alternative way to do them. Some good examples of these can be seen here: http://www.swimsmooth.com/training_adv.html Identifying your Critical Swim Speed and then working with progressively longer sets on shorter recoveries will really help as will adding more rest and trying to swim your efforts that bit quicker too. Having said all of this, personally I think how you swim in the pool is great…its just what happens when you get to the openwater that things need to be changed in order for you to improve.
Use the “human shoe-horn” technique as explained here for putting your wetsuit on properly. It will make all the difference. You need a friend to assist: http://www.swimsmooth.com/triathlon_adv.html
On the same link above you’ll see some good tips on sighting and drafting which will also really help you in the openwater. You say you swim in the openwater once per week? How structured is this? Could you practice some really structured drafting work on a regular basis, even if this is in the pool. I coach one pool and one openwater session as part of our entire program each week where this is the sole focus. Great for triathlon. Drafting like this has been shown to save between 18 and 25% of your energy expenditure when practiced efficiently and conversely would help you to swim much quicker as well. Very few people invest enough time in to this skill though within their programs. High recommended.
Finally - head position. We are led to believe that EVERYONE should swim with their eyes looking down at the bottom of the pool (sort of “burying your head”). This supposedly allows us to keep our hips and legs high in the water and thus facilitate a more efficient body position. Should everyone swim like this? What if you’re a good swimmer able to swim the sorts of sets that you do, have good natural buoyancy and body position like you must do, who then puts a wetsuit on and feels “unnaturally floaty” and unable to kick effectively? Should you be looking straight down at the bottom of the lake / river / ocean or should you modify your head position accordingly by looking a little further forward in the water to balance out your added buoyancy, regain a sense of balance and control and also regain your kick. I guarantee this will help.
Most people report how wearing a wetsuit is like a godsend, that they love swimming in the openwater because they swim so much faster and feel so much more supported. All the more frustrating then when you’re one of the “good swimmers on (pool) paper” and yet feel like you go backwards relative to the field with your suit on in the openwater. If this is you Darren you need to look at doing things slightly differently and hopefully that might start with a few of the pointers above. This is a very common complaint that I hear from the more advanced swimmers that I coach and especially the elite females who tend to have really good natural buoyancy. Keep us posted - I hope they help you as it sounds like you could do really well based on those training sets! Good luck!