OK so what should we do with these dudes?

The Coffee Shop
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http://f.chtah.com/i/0/2068514899/200809_spacer.gifhttp://f.chtah.com/i/0/2068514899/highseas.gifhttp://f.chtah.com/i/0/2068514899/200809_spacer.gifhttp://f.chtah.com/i/0/2068514899/200809_enews_1.gifPirates Bounce Back

American ship captain Richard Phillips may be safe and sound, but trouble with the Somali pirates is just beginning: “In the future, America will be the one mourning and crying,” a Somali pirate told the Associated Press after the rescue operation that killed three of his comrades. Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said “There’s second and third order effects to every action. And this could escalate violence in this part of the world. No question about it.” Gortney added that the rescue mission was ordered because Phillips’ life was in “imminent danger.” President Obama authorized the attack himself: While one pirate was on board the main ship to negotiate, Phillips moved to the side of the lifeboat on which he was being held to relieve himself, and US forces shot the three pirates on the lifeboat with him.

Read it at ABC News

Should we -

A) Let them be and wait for another emergency to do something so as to not stir up more antagonism.

B) Look for a way to a peaceful solution. Offer them peace and some carrots they might go for and be calmed down, in the interest of a good humanitarian outcome with less people killed and no collateral damage. It’s not really their fault because their environment has forced them to this way of life.

***C) Start formulating a plan to wipe them out soon so that they cannot threaten those major shipping lanes anymore. ***

***BTW as a complication in that place, there is also a significant Al Qaeda presence that has grown and keeps growing. ***

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***BTW as a complication in that place, there is also a significant Al Qaeda presence that has grown and keeps growing. ***

I thought we took care of Al Qaeda when we invaded Iraq.

I think any form of pre-emptive attack on the pirates would just result in an open war so the best thing would be to arm the ships and let them destroy the pirates when they attack. It might be wise to keep countries out of this.

3

There’s really no cohesive “them” to go after either with force or with aid. Short of invading yet another country and going off on a vain Global War on Piracy or throwing heaps of money (from where?) at those impoverished nations, there’s nothing to be done but wait. And make it clear that you don’t get ransom for hijacking a boat - you get shot.

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***BTW as a complication in that place, there is also a significant Al Qaeda presence that has grown and keeps growing. ***

I thought we took care of Al Qaeda when we invaded Iraq.

It’s strange that Al Qaeda sprang up in Somalia, especially after we took care of them in Afghanistan.

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I thought we took care of Al Qaeda when we invaded Iraq.

You see that’s the problem right there. In Iraq there just wasn’t enough humanitarian strategy applied.

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**There’s really no cohesive “them” to go after either with force or with aid. Short of invading yet another country and going off on a vain Global War on Piracy or throwing heaps of money (from where?) at those impoverished nations, there’s nothing to be done but wait. And make it clear that you don’t get ransom for hijacking a boat - you get shot. **

The problem of the wait for them to attack tactic, is that sea is really vast and there are numerous very many ships passing by in a very huge speread out area everyday. So protection for even a fraction of the ships is a daunting task. Secondly too many Ports don’t allow firearms aboard vessels when they dock, so these ships can’t arm themselves.

2 very actual situations that these pirates capitalize on.

Here’s a thought … Why not just do whatever is possible to locate where these pirates are held up, keep an aircraft carrier in the vicinity and whenever a target is confirmed just send a few bombers over for some target practice and blow them up. No need for invasion and no need for re-building efforts.

Think this might have an impact on pirate’s activities?

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The day these cargo ships start reigning down .50cal sniper fire and 7.62 minigun rounds from elevated platforms above the conning towers is the day that the pirates decide to start farming instead.

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I’d say we try to grease every one of these ‘pirate clan’ members but that’s just the emotional centers in my brain talking. Besides, we’d run out of ammo and patience, before too long. I hear the HMFIC of the pirates is now saying he and his zipperheads are going to retaliate against all American shipping transiting those waters. We’ll have to see about that.

T.

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Lets be real here, you can never wipe these guys out using military force. They are fishermen one minute pirates the next. Short of strafing every boat in the northern Indian Ocean our military options vis a vis wiping them out are very limited indeed.

These guys are very shrewd businessmen and they are in the business of kidnapping and ransom taking. Thus far they have been very good at keeping hostages alive, delivering hostages, and collecting ransomes. The economics of shipping and insurance dictate that its cheaper to pay these guys than to go to war with them. Unless the economics change the dynamic will remain static.

The easist way to make the economics change its to add to the pirates’ costs in some way. I’d send in decoy ships and sail them up and down that coast full of special operations guys, or mercenaries. Offer little resistence, let the pirates board and then either arrest them or kill them, whatever is the best option.

After a bunch of these guys start washing up on the beach or ending up in prison somewhere, the cost benefit analysis will be done and those Somali fishermen turned pirates will go back to smuggling or whatever it was they did before taking up piracy.

I’d make the shipping lines or insurance companies pay for this security operation.

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“Lets be real here, you can never wipe these guys out using military force.”

Well, we haven’t really tried to scour the seas of bad guys in a hundred years or so, but I’m for it if you are.

“Short of strafing every boat in the northern Indian Ocean …”

Sounds like a plan, my man. I think the Berserker route may be a useful utility to download into the old Military OS :wink:

These guys are very shrewd businessmen and they are in the business of kidnapping and ransom taking. Thus far they have been very good at keeping hostages alive, delivering hostages, and collecting ransomes. The economics of shipping and insurance dictate that its cheaper to pay these guys than to go to war with them. Unless the economics change the dynamic will remain static.

The dynamic will change damn fast if a few of these guys’ bodies are dumped off at the local version of whatever passes for the government over there in that Third World cesspool. These guys are fatalists above all else. Most of them believe their fates are already written in The Book, so if they take it in the brain housing group, I’m sure their compatriots would understand and move on to something else more productive, like khat farming or something.

And you should know as well as anybody that paying off bad guys NEVER works in the long run. Except maybe for the time Pope whatever-his-name-was paid off the Gauls or the Goths or the Sex Pistols. I forget which.

The easist way to make the economics change its to add to the pirates’ costs in some way. I’d send in decoy ships and sail them up and down that coast full of special operations guys, or mercenaries.

I like this part of the plan, for sure. The dhow, or whatever the hell the Somalis call their boats, happens to be out and about on a fishing trip and they come across an innocent-looking ship. Bam! The pirate hats come out and they decide to make a play for Door #2, where the payouts are really big. Unfortunately, Jay hits the buzzer and they crap out. Hopefully, the crap-out is a shitload of 7.62mm poisoning coursing through their veins, but that’s for better people than me to figure out how to make happen.

**After a bunch of these guys start washing up on the beach or ending up in prison somewhere, the cost benefit analysis will be done and those Somali fishermen turned pirates will go back to smuggling or whatever it was they did before taking up piracy. **

I like you more with each passing day. You really do understand the law of the sea and the right of free and unmolested passage. Good on ya, sir.

T.

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So here’s an idea.

It’s not mainly US Ships that have been targeted. The problem is in that vast sea there are not enough assetts to secure all that area.

So every country who has a navy and has shipping interests using that sea should form a coalition to put out it’s share of assetts there for the time being. Those who want to sit back and do nothing, their ships are off the list to be protected.

If USA goes it alone again, when an incident occurrs which requires some aggression where there is collateral damage, the reward you might get going by track record are humanitarian activists marching in the streets of europe denouncing the USA as an Imperialistic Aggressor. USA unpopular again and the likes of Hugo Chavez gaining more popularity.

Actually arming the ships with some serious weaponry like large calibre machine guns and some sniper rifles is really a good idea. The sailors aboard then need to be trained to use these. Countries whose Ports do not allow weapons should bend the rules under the circumstances to say something like the weapons have to be declared on docking, surrendered to authorities and given back on setting sail … would be pragmatic solution.

Someone should take the lead in getting negotiations started. The alternative would be to let this just keep going on. Now the pirates it seems are keen on escalating their activities to prove a point.

I tend to feel that whenever baddies rear their ugly heads like this, it’s a good time to get some live excercises going, getting the troops experienced as well as testing equipment for real. The more you practice the better you get, as with anything.

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All questions of morality aside, we don’t have enough ships aircraft or ammunition to strafe every boat in the northern Indian Ocean, so that idea while it might appeal to some, is a complete non-starter.

They only way to deal with these pirates is to catch them in acts of piracy. They are well organized in gangs and are well funded and supplied. They have hundreds if not thousands of small fast boats along the coast of Somalia with enough range to catch up to anything that comes through the Suez canal and through the Gulf of Aden.

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The End Time are surely near when BH and MattinSF agree. Can a compromise on Gay Marriage be too far behind?

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The End Time are surely near when BH and MattinSF agree. Can a compromise on Gay Marriage be too far behind?

I’m all for compromise, actually, on most anything. It’s the only way a disparate society can get along. It’s when one side or the other starts demanding “my way or the highway” that we all start finding out the limits of our tolerance.

T.

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Actually arming the ships with some serious weaponry like large calibre machine guns and some sniper rifles is really a good idea. The sailors aboard then need to be trained to use these. Countries whose Ports do not allow weapons should bend the rules under the circumstances to say something like the weapons have to be declared on docking, surrendered to authorities and given back on setting sail … would be pragmatic solution.

From what I’ve read, this would be a really bad idea. The reason why the merchant mariners have not been armed is because the pirates would simply board the ships and relieve them of their expensive weaponry and use it to hijack other ships. The main problem is that the crews of these vessels are not trained to either monitor threats or recognize them. Those seas are full of small boats, some even come alongside cargo ships to sell booze and cigarettes, and what happens is that when they come up to the unsuspecting ship they are aboard before anyone knows they are even in the neighborhood. The first the crew knows about pirates in the area is when they are getting out of their bunk and looking at a guy holding an RPG-7 launcher.

They just don’t have the capacity or training for round the clock surveillance.

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**I’d say we try to grease every one of these ‘pirate clan’ members but that’s just the emotional centers in my brain talking. Besides, we’d run out of ammo and patience, before too long. I hear the HMFIC of the pirates is now saying he and his zipperheads are going to retaliate against all American shipping transiting those waters. We’ll have to see about that. **

Maybe we should start calling them “the saracens”. That would be akin to when the allies would call the Germans “the Hun” during WWI and WWII.

I think any operation against these saracens must be of the black variety. Get some subs in the area. Elite ground forces with targeted assassinations. All with plausible deniability.

Bernie

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re slowberns comments about black ops.

I recently had the opportunity to train (new software) some guys that work in a facility that supplies weapons for special operations forces. They were showing me around, including their weapons storage system. I noticed that most of the weapons were not normal US weapons. They probably had 20 different handguns, 10 different sniper rifles, a couple of heavy machine guns, and at least 40 different “assault” weapons.

I put 2 and 2 together when they said something about supplying for black operations. They can’t go in to another country toting the latest American weapons. So, they train with and use the weapons normally found in that country. It was pretty cool to see all the different weapons.

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I vote for taking a couple of normal freighters and arming them with heavy machine guns and other weapons and disguising them so you can’t see the weapons, much as the Allies did against the Germans to lure u-Boats in close in WWI. Operate these freighters in the area where the pirates are known to be attacking, and make them look like an “easy” target. Once the pirates get close, drop the diguise and blast them out of the water. Do this a few times and perhaps they’ll go back to fishing for a living.

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Even I watch the military channel sometimes. No point in going undercover behind enemy lines hoping to get in and out undetected, while leaving behind a lot of dead people full of 5.56 caliber ammunition when the locals all use 7.62. Might as well plant a big American flag and leave some Big Mac wrappers laying around.

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Here we go, this is not going away anytime soon -

Undeterred Somali pirates hijack 3 more ships http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/p/ap_logo_106.png http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090414/capt.7217cf2b187944c8990176df50839497.kenya_piracy_xsa108.jpg?x=213&y=127&xc=1&yc=1&wc=409&hc=244&q=85&sig=YuEwSKDnsiGM_EfnhiGVRw-- AP – The crew of Maersk Alabama, react on as they leave for the Serena Hotel, Mombasa, Kenya, after leaving … By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writers Elizabeth A. Kennedy And Pauline Jelinek, Associated Press Writers – 49 mins ago
MOMBASA, Kenya – Undeterred by U.S. and French hostage rescues that killed five bandits, Somali pirates brazenly hijacked three more ships in the Gulf of Aden, the waterway at the center of the world’s fight against piracy.
Pirates have vowed to retaliate for the killing of their colleagues — and the top U.S. military officer said Tuesday he takes those comments seriously.
But Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told ABC’s “Good Morning America” that “we’re very well prepared to deal with anything like that.”
The latest trophy for the pirates was the M.V. Irene E.M., a Greek-managed bulk carrier sailing from the Middle East to South Asia, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau’s piracy reporting center in Kuala Lumpur.
The Irene was attacked and seized in the middle of the night Tuesday — a rare tactic for the pirates.
U.S. Navy Lt. Nathan Christensen, spokesman for the Bahrain-based 5th Fleet, said the Irene was flagged in the Caribbean island nation of St. Vincent and the Grenadines and carried 23 Filipino crew. Choong reported a crew of 21, and there was no immediate way to reconcile the figures.
A maritime security contractor, speaking on condition of anonymity because it is a sensitive security issue, said the ship put out a distress signal “to say they had a suspicious vessel approaching. That rapidly turned into an attack and then a hijacking.”
“They tried to call in support on the emergency channels, but they never got any response,” the contractor said.
On Monday, Somali pirates also seized two Egyptian fishing boats in the Gulf of Aden off Somalia’s northern coast, according to Egypt’s Foreign Ministry, which said the boats carried 18 to 24 Egyptians total.
A flotilla of warships from nearly a dozen countries has patrolled the Gulf of Aden and nearby Indian Ocean waters for months. They have halted several attacks on ships this year, but say the area is so vast they can’t stop all hijackings.
Choong said pirate attacks this year had risen to 77, with 18 of those ships hijacked and 16 vessels with 285 crew still in pirates’ hands. Each boat carries the potential of a million-dollar ransom.
The latest seizures come after Navy SEAL snipers rescued American ship captain Richard Phillips on Sunday by killing three young pirates who held him captive in a drifting lifeboat for five days. A fourth pirate surrendered after seeking medical attention for a wound he received in trying to take over Phillips’ vessel, the Maersk Alabama.
Phillips is aboard a Navy vessel at an undisclosed location, Christensen said Tuesday. He was initially taken aboard the Norfolk, Va.-based USS Bainbridge and then flown to the San Diego-based USS Boxer for a medical exam.
In Washington, President Barack Obama appeared to move the piracy issue higher on his agenda, vowing the United States would work with nations around the world to fight the problem.
“I want to be very clear that we are resolved to halt the rise of piracy in that region and to achieve that goal, we’re going to have to continue to work with our partners to prevent future attacks,” Obama said at a news conference Monday.
The 19 crew members of the Alabama celebrated their skipper’s freedom with beer and an evening barbecue Monday in the Kenyan port of Mombasa, said crewman Ken Quinn.
The vessel’s chief mate was among those urging strong U.S. action against piracy.
“It’s time for us to step in and put an end to this crisis,” Shane Murphy said. “It’s a crisis. Wake up.”
The U.S. is considering new options to fight piracy, including adding Navy gunships along the Somali coastline and launching a campaign to disable pirate “mother ships,” according to military officials. They spoke on condition of anonymity because no decisions have been made yet.
In Burlington, Vt., Phillips’ wife, Andrea Phillips thanked Obama, who approved the dramatic sniper operation.
“With Richard saved, you all just gave me the best Easter ever,” she said in a statement.
The four pirates that attacked the Alabama were between 17 and 19 years old, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said.
“Untrained teenagers with heavy weapons,” Gates told students and faculty at the Marine Corps War College. “Everybody in the room knows the consequences of that.”
U.S. officials were now considering whether to bring the fourth pirate, who surrendered shortly before the sniper shootings, to the United States or possibly turn him over to Kenya. Both piracy and hostage-taking carry life prison sentences under U.S. law.
The French navy late Monday handed over the bodies of two Somali pirates killed in a hostage rescue operation last week to authorities in Somali’s semiautonomous northern region of Puntland and locals buried the bodies.