Oh dick, dick, dick: Cheney on torture

The Coffee Shop
22

Vitus you love to play word games don’t you? I did not make the “but Saddam did it too argument.” You asked me what do I consider torture. I provided you a list of things I considere to be so. They are also things Saddam did yes but also the type of things I am sure were done in former Soviet gulags and maybe even today. They may be things North Korea or China does too.

I have also been consistent in saying I do not think these things are OK either. What my argument has been is that the definition of other types of treatment may be considered torture by you but a neccessary means by me. Slowguy has already provided some perfectly legitimate examples. Is flushing the Koran down a toilet torture? If you think so then we must agree to disagree. Is depriving someone of sleep torture? Again if you think so then we simply agree to disagree.

23

I say that if torture gets information that will save another human, then I am all for it. Dont forget who this enemy is. If you do, you will lose! If these mullies got there hands on any of us, I am sure you would be headless in no time! Need a reminder? Go to www.michaelsavage.com and take a look at the way our enemy treats others!

Lets say these so called “freedom fighters” got a huge bomb into the US, we dont know where the bomb is, but we caught the persons that put this bomb in this unknown place. Would it be OK to toture them to find out where that bomb is? What if the bomb was in your hood, and your family and friends were in danger, would it be OK then?

24

“What’s so hard to understand? The adminitration doesn’t want to torture anyone, they just want to do cruel, inhuman, and degrading things to people.”

Yup according to your implications they are just straining at the bit to do such things for no good reason. Can you enlighten us to why this is so?

And that’s why so many insurgence and insurgent weapons into Iraq come compliments via Syria.
To hell with what Senator …ooops I mean Congressman Arnold has to say.

-kangaroo

25

Absolutely! Problem is your reasoning is too much to the point and uncomplicated for some here to accept.

And that’s why so many insurgence and insurgent weapons into Iraq come compliments via Syria.
To hell with what Senator …ooops I mean Congressman Arnold has to say.

-kangaroo

26

“ay that if torture gets information that will save another human, then I am all for it”

The problem is that it usually doesn’t get reliable information.

“If these mullies got there hands on any of us, I am sure you would be headless in no time!”

Not good enough reason to resort to torture on our part.

27

“Slowguy has already provided some perfectly legitimate examples.”

Yeah I’m so sure we’re all so grateful to sloguy for his enlightenment as to what constitutes the definition of torture is. Before that we had no idea of our own.

Wouldn’t it be terrible if them Islamic militant types would just tear up the bible in front of captives instead of lobbing heads off. Then all of the Christians and Catholics can do the same as them ‘moderate Muslims’ did and hit the streets in protest burning effigies and flags etc.

The best part was that, that Guantanamo Bay Bible flushing incident later turned out to be misinformation, but them Muslims continued marching the streets anyway because they were already fired up. Maybe the guards and interoggators at Guantanamo should have taken a leaf from their Muslim brothers and lobbed off a few heads. Then maybe then there would be no Muslim outcry.

How come they never march the streets when some of their fellow Muslims are bombed up by their own kind. Because the Koran says explicitly, “No Muslim shall judge another brother Muslim. That right belongs only to Allah in heaven.” Yup them are the sort of teachings that make so much sense hence the mentality we see.

And I’ve been accused of exagerating the mentalities of these good folk because my accusers insist on basing their analysis that devout Muslims think like us folk. To understand the nature of the threat is to better understand the threat itself and how to deal with it.

28

"Yeah I’m so sure we’re all so grateful to sloguy for his enlightenment as to what constitutes the definition of torture is. Before that we had no idea of our own. "

Is there some reason you’re determined to act like an asshole?

"“No Muslim shall judge another brother Muslim. That right belongs only to Allah in heaven.” "

Wow, sounds supiciously like Christian teaching to me. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

“And I’ve been accused of exagerating the mentalities of these good folk because my accusers insist on basing their analysis that devout Muslims think like us folk.”

No, you’ve been accused of being a bigot because you assume all devout Muslims think exactly alike. Nobody doubts that some Muslims think as you say, as evidenced by terrorit acts. However, not every devout Muslim thinks that way, anymore than every devout Catholic thinks like an IRA terrorist.

29
  1. “Is there some reason you’re determined to act like an asshole?”

Okay at least in your book I’m not yet an asshole, just someone who is determined to act like one. Stating the obvious that most of us here already know the definition of the word torture and don’t need it explained by you seems to have invoked your wrath. Or do you normally just like to throw the word asshole at others? And please do explain how my acting to you makes you think that it’s acting like an asshole?

  1. "Wow, sounds supiciously like Christian teaching to me. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

And Wow here we go again another rubber band analogy. Not the first time you’ve compared Christians to Muslims. Which forces me to become repetitive same as you, to point out again that Christianity is not the platform for terror. In stark contrast Islam is. Telling you this is almost the same as you defining what torture is for us to read…ie stating the obvious.

You see sloguy if a Christian were to bomb other Christain civillians because they felt they were not adhering to religious practices in the conventional way, that “Judge not, lest ye be judged” would be thrown out the window. In stark contrast (I’m starting to like that phrase) others before eg Bali and Jakarta and the insurgence in Iraq them Muslims do it all the time. Check the non-level of adamance and protest and you can see how literally they take their teachings. You may not appreciate it, but I reckon I am excercising a lot of patience spoon feeding you like this.

  1. “No, you’ve been accused of being a bigot because you assume all devout Muslims think exactly alike. Nobody doubts that some Muslims think as you say, as evidenced by terrorit acts. However, not every devout Muslim thinks that way, anymore than every devout Catholic thinks like an IRA terrorist.”

They think like that because the religion says so. If they are devout they have to adhere to that religion which by it’s definition and substance is not meant to be interpreted but simply adhered to. Hence the think alike actual syndrome. If not quite terrorist then at least empathiser. No other main stream institutional religion has this problem. That’s why you don’t see any other religion breeding such widespread terrorism. Hence the widespread recruitment. OK open your mouth wide …her comes the spoon.

Well I know it’s your favourite past-time …ie repetition … eg Guantana Holiday Resort … But for the sake of not repeating anymore, let’s just agree to disagree. OK I’m the Bigot who is determined to act like an asshole and you’re the Naive Stubborn Ostrich with his head in the sand and his big butt exposed and upright waiting to get shafted or slammed.

30

“Stating the obvious that most of us here already know the definition of the word torture and don’t need it explained by you seems to have invoked your wrath.”

Kangaroo, I responded with the definition of torture to a question raised by Vitus: “What’s the difference between torture and “cruel, inhumane, and degrading” treatment? Where’s the line between them?” Providing the definition of torture is an appropriate response to that question. You have a problem with me, so you feel compelled to make a shitty remark about that. That’s what makes me say you acted like an asshole.

" Which forces me to become repetitive same as you, to point out again that Christianity is not the platform for terror."

First off, that’s not true, there have been plenty of “Christian” terrorists including the IRA and the various militia groups in this country. Second, if you are going to point to a specific belief in Islam as part of the problem, it would make sense to look to see if that belief is also inherent in other major religions. Don’t get upset just because I raise a flaw in your logic.

“You see sloguy if a Christian were to bomb other Christain civillians because they felt they were not adhering to religious practices in the conventional way”

Which they do with regularity “in stark contrast” to your assertions.

“Judge not, lest ye be judged” would be thrown out the window"

Why? the judge not part isn’t with regard to why the terrorists attack, but with regard to how their society judges them for those acts.

"You may not appreciate it, but I reckon I am excercising a lot of patience spoon feeding you like this. "

You’re right, I don’t appreciate that you think you’re spoon feeding me what is basically a load of crap.

“No other main stream institutional religion has this problem. That’s why you don’t see any other religion breeding such widespread terrorism. Hence the widespread recruitment.”

You don’t think it could have anything to do with the land given to Israel, or the West’s presence in the Middle East, or the oil that flows from the region, or etc etc huh? It’s gotta simply be that all Muslims are lunatics who can’t think straight? It’s almost impossible to believe that you really think that’s true.

“you’re the Naive Stubborn Ostrich with his head in the sand and his big butt exposed and upright waiting to get shafted or slammed.”

Nice. And you wonder why I said you were acting like an asshole?

31

All you’ve said here has that rubber band stretchy feel to it. For someone who claims such vast experience in this field you sure can ignore what’s going on everyday in your face.

As for calling me an asshole for my first time name calling? Hey I learnt that from you which logically makes you the bigger asshole! -:slight_smile: Hey but I didn’t really call you anything that bad besides an Ostrich did I? So what should we call someone who calls others asshole for no good reason? Why would someone claiming to have a Masters Degree In Internal Security have to resort to such unprovoked bad mouthing?

OK I’ll sleep on that. I’m going beddie bies now. I’ll log on tomorrow to see what else you have to say for yourself.

32

"All you’ve said here has that rubber band stretchy feel to it. For someone who claims such vast experience in this field you sure can ignore what’s going on everyday in your face. "

What does this even mean? You have no point, you just tell me I’m ignoring something. You’re not clear what I’m supposed to be ignoring, but apparently I’m ignoring something. And what the Hell does it mean that the things I’ve said have a “rubber band stretchy feel?” Someone asked what the difference between torture and cruel a demeaning treatment is and I discussed, providing the UN definition of torture. That’s stretchy?

"As for calling me an asshole for my first time name calling? "

Huh? I said “You are determined to act like an asshole.” which seems true.

“So what should we call someone who calls others asshole for no good reason?”

Huh? You feel the need to make crappy remarks about my post, which wasn’t even to you, and then you say I’ve got my ass in the air waiting to get screwed, and I’m the asshole? You’re a joke, and you have no idea what you’re talking about, and no experience upon which to draw to make logical or informed discussion, so you resort to rambling, then you tell other people they are naive or “stretchy” for not agreeing with your nonsense. You need to take some time off, do some reading, educate yourself, and then come back with an informed opinion instead of just foaming at the mouth.

33

Vitus you love to play word games don’t you? I did not make the “but Saddam did it too argument.”

Yes, and Ken wasn’t trying to draw any parallels to Nazi Germany back in that old thread about the pledge of allegience and our flag flying that his German friend finds so creepy. OK.

You asked me what do I consider torture. I provided you a list of things I considere to be so.

Was it inclusive? If we commit other acts of torture, but not those specific forms, are we still better than Saddam?

What my argument has been is that the definition of other types of treatment may be considered torture by you but a neccessary means by me. Slowguy has already provided some perfectly legitimate examples. Is flushing the Koran down a toilet torture?

Of course not. Nobody is claiming that it is. Do you think the Administration is pushing for the exemption because it wants to engage in such petty behavior?

Is depriving someone of sleep torture? Again if you think so then we simply agree to disagree.

There’s no need to agree to disagree about that. Do you really think that Cheney is lobbying Congress to get an exemption allowing sleep deprivation? I think that’s going to be pretty hard to argue, considering that we already deprive even our own criminal suspects of sleep, and nobody complains about it. They aren’t looking for an exemption allowing cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment for anything so innocuous. If they were, they wouldn’t need an exemption.

34

dvfmfidc,

You say, “Dont forget who this enemy is.”

But check this out …

“there have been plenty of “Christian” terrorists including the IRA and the various militia groups in this country.” - slowguy

Is the IRA a part of the Christian Terrorists or are they the Northern Irish Militant Catholics opposed to Irish and British Protestants? Maybe I should go get my masters in a related subject to find out.

In any case the important thing is that it’s confirmed here. Less we forget, the enemy are Christian Terrorists. A global threat so rampant in our country. Let’s hope our leaderships see the urgency of this threat and mobilize and redirect all our resources accordingly.

And that’s why so many insurgence and insurgent weapons into Iraq come compliments via Syria.
To hell with what Senator …ooops I mean Congressman Arnold has to say.

-kangaroo

35

That’s really how you want to continue? When you don’t have an answer to any actual points, you just take a quote out of context, and make fun of it in a reply to someone else? I take back what I previously said. You are not acting like an asshole. You apparently are an asshole.

36
  1. “you just take a quote out of context,”

Why is it out of context? I say Islam is the base problem of the terror threat we are facing today. You come up with terrorism from Christians including IRA, who are Catholics by the way, and how it is so rampant here. So I made a direct comparison of the percieved threat to the real kind of threat from the Muslim faction. Logically is there any other context?

  1. “and make fun of it in a reply to someone else?”

Firstly this thread in ST is about open discussion so anyone can respond to anyone else. Who are you to tell me or me to tell anyone else who they can respond to? As for fun, I can put things in a light hearted manner if I want to, to break up some monotony, …but as the saying goes …“a lot of truth is said in jest”, …isn’t it?

  1. “I take back what I previously said. You are not acting like an asshole. You apparently are an asshole.”

Well you know verbal diarrhoea from one to another really doesn’t contitute fact now does it? You really would be better off sticking to the contents of your argument like the the “Global Christian Terrorist rampant threat including the IRA” instead of sucumbing to name calling. Again, allow me to point out, it’s not out of context since you brought it up to compare. So sticking to the discussion, make up your mind. Is it in context or did your bringing up this Christian thing up totally and ridiculously out of context?

Chill!

37

“Why is it out of context?”

It’s out of context because, instead of replying to me and to my post, you cut out just one part of that post and shoved it into a sarcastic response to someone else entirely, without any background or context attached, for the sole purpose of making a snide remark.

"Who are you to tell me or me to tell anyone else who they can respond to? "

Didn’t tell you who you can reply to. Just told you that you sound like an ass when you reply the way you did.

“Global Christian Terrorist rampant threat including the IRA”

Making things up and exagerrating what I said strengthens neither your argument about Islam, nor your argument about you not being an ass.

"Is it in context or did your bringing up this Christian thing up totally and ridiculously out of context? "

It would have been in context if you had addressed it “in context” instead of in an unrelated post to someone else, without any of the background discussion, and without even quoting the entirety of what I said. Any idiot can cut and paste parts of sentences and make fun of them. That doesn’t make you clever, nor does it help make your argument. It makes you sound like you have no argument left, so the best you could do was try to be sarcastic to someone else instead of addressing your reply to my post directly to me.

38

Bla …bla and bla. Nothing here addressing the topic at hand.

You know what? Most of what you are whining and accusing me of … could actually be very accurately applied to your own postings from day one. I know you have been off track more than on, but do you think you can get back on track? Do you have anything ie actual examples that can go with your subjective disapproval of my opinions and remarks about the terror threat … I mean besides just saying it’s all ridiculous and wrong … because you know things like the Christian non-threat really don’t cut it.

You really do have that Masters in National Security and all that experience and exposure to people prominent to this topic as you claim …don’t you? Really would expect something better from you some time soon.

39

totally agreed.

40

“Bla …bla and bla. Nothing here addressing the topic at hand”

I’d be happy to address an actual topic instead of your stupidity. Feel free to add something to the discussion any time you feel ready.

41

I’ve mentioned this many times already … everytime you complain. Kangaroo is stupid. Kangaroo is a ridiculous Bigot. Kangaroo has nothing of actual value to say…over and over. So why are you still here talking to him from one thread to the next in this intensity after all this time??? Begs the question whose really the stupid one?

Don’t make excuses. Don’t address anything I have to say. Don’t address me. Please address the TOPIC at hand for once in your life Mr Masters Degree in Internal Security! I am waiting in antici…p…p…p…ation. -:slight_smile:

“Feel free to add something to the discussion any time you feel ready.”

I’ve pretty well stated my opinions on these related topics for ST discussion in general. Much of it was spent talking to you and extending my intended postings because you like responding to my posts so much despite your claims to the contrary. Yes I feel very free to add things to the discussiions here if I happen to feel like doing so. I don’t need an invitation from your cleverness thank-you.

And I’ll it say again … your Master’s Degree habit surprisingly consists more of name calling, whining, making sarcastic invitations and remarks. Your ‘facts’ on the related topic range from mostly non-existent to the rampant threat of Christian Terrorism in each of your posts. It’s all here in big B&W in your posts, just as the Muslim terrorists are actually perpetuating terror attacks all over the world. The proof on both is in hard undeniable evidence.

In all honesty, since you have announced your own superior calibre in ST I would have expected better from you.