Official Fit Assistance For Canyon Speedmax, Cfr, Slx, and-Cf

Triathlon Forum
261

Hi Ian, interested in your thoughts/recommendation based on a recent Guru fit:

Pad reach: 556
Pad stack: 765
Pad height: 43
Pad offset: 46
Pad Center to Center: 245

Hx: 602
Hy: 722
Sx: 161
Sy: 765

Saddle ht over BB: 829
Saddle setback: 26
Drop from saddle to bars: 48
Reach from saddle to bars: 896

Crank length: 172.5
Extension length: 267

Saddle thickness: 48
Saddle clamp to nose: 135

Saddle tip to center pads: 570

Extension pitch: +12 deg
Saddle: -5 deg

6’ 3", ~190 lbs

Thanks!

262

Hi Ian, interested in your thoughts/recommendation based on a recent Guru fit:

Pad reach: 556
Pad stack: 765
Pad Center to Center: 245

Saddle ht over BB: 829, Saddle setback: 26, Drop from saddle to bars: 48, Reach from saddle to bars: 896
Crank length: 172.5
Extension pitch: +12 deg
Saddle: -5 deg
6’ 3", ~190 lbs

Chrispdx,

There are some numbers in here that give me pause. I expect that someone’s drop (arm pad elevation) to be 12-15% of their set height. Yours is ~5%. There might be a reason…

  1. beer belly for example - but you’re 6’3" 190 and that doesn’t say “big belly” to me
  2. lots and lots of fused vertebrae, especially in the lumbar area.
  3. fit didn’t proceed forward enough (steep enough in seat angle) - but setback is 26mm and that seems sensible - unless…you were sitting way back on this saddle to find comfort, then this gives me a false reading.
  4. fit process didn’t entice you to ride lower on the front end. This happens from time to time - someone, fitter or fittee needs to step up and say “hey, let’s keep going lower and see you can stay comfortable, maybe even find more comfort”.

The drop speaks to your Pad Y and your pad y is a big number. If you were able to ride at even 10% of your seat height then your Pad Y would be 730 and that’s a number that we can celebrate and put to use. The best Canyon Speedmax in the line for you is the CF. You’d be on an XL, which comes with a 90mm stem. That stem maxes out at a Pad X of 533. You’d need a 110mm stem and Canyon doesn’t make that so you’d go out into the real world and get a Ritchey, Zipp, or Giant stem (they have a 1 & 1/4 inch to fit the steer tube). That would give you the length you need. The height would be right with some room to spare as it maxes out at Pad Y of 741. Now, If I’m wrong about my assumption, and you have to be up in the neighborhood of 760 in your Pad Y then all you’d do is acquire that new, longer stem in a +6 pitch and you’d be in the 760s.

Get back to me with questions or clarification.

Ian

263

Hi Ian,

I measured the inseam, torso, arm length, …etc to get me size recommendation for Canyon Speedmax CF SLX 9.0. Using following in inches, of course this is to the best to my ability measure them.

Height 70, Inseam Length 33, Body weight 160, Torso Length 23, Shoulder Width 19, Arm Length 23.

Here are my recent fit numbers in “cm” on my Cervelo P3.

Cervelo P3 Seat height- 75.5cm Seat set back- 2.0 Drop- 11.4 Reach- 49.4 Pad Width- 24.2

The recommended size from website is “M”, and as this is tri bike, it will probably last buy in foreseen future. I wanted to make sure, and if possible hear your suggestions about using smaller size for aero benefit. If not, if the medium is absolutely the best for me.

Thanks for creating this help,

Regards, Onder

264

Onder,

I have a firm belief that there is a hierarchy of accuracy in finding the proper Pad Y & Pad X before buying a Canyon Speedmax. Here they are in brief:

  1. Get a pre-fit from an educated, experienced tri fitter who has the proper tooling (read: dynamic fit bike). The added brilliance of this is that you also get all your fit coordinates so that when your new bike arrives you can put it into the perfect position.
  2. If you own a tri bike that has an excellent position then let’s measure off the old bike to ID the proper new bike
  3. Give me your saddle height and overall height and I can work it.
  4. Take all your body measurements and plug 'em into Canyon’s PPS

So, I can work with the numbers you sent me (755mm and overall height 1778mm - converted from 70in). But…if you like the way your current bike fits I could walk you through a way to measure it at home that could, potentially yield a better Pad Y, Pad X than tweaking the numbers.

Let me know and I’ll act on either way you want to go.

Ian

265

Onder,

I have a firm belief that there is a hierarchy of accuracy in finding the proper Pad Y & Pad X before buying a Canyon Speedmax. Here they are in brief:

  1. Get a pre-fit from an educated, experienced tri fitter who has the proper tooling (read: dynamic fit bike). The added brilliance of this is that you also get all your fit coordinates so that when your new bike arrives you can put it into the perfect position.
  2. If you own a tri bike that has an excellent position then let’s measure off the old bike to ID the proper new bike
  3. Give me your saddle height and overall height and I can work it.
  4. Take all your body measurements and plug 'em into Canyon’s PPS

So, I can work with the numbers you sent me (755mm and overall height 1778mm - converted from 70in). But…if you like the way your current bike fits I could walk you through a way to measure it at home that could, potentially yield a better Pad Y, Pad X than tweaking the numbers.

Let me know and I’ll act on either way you want to go.

Ian

Thanks Ian for getting back promptly, appreciated.

My bike fit number i gave you, are directly from my last fit, from a very experience fitter on Retul. I am somewhat happy with my fit, however i may need to adjust slightly (been a year), as my heart rate increases when on aero tuck. This could be due to new seasons adaptation issue, as i ride my road bike mostly, which i am very comfortable on.

My hope with the new bike is to find a better position with its geometry, where i dont have heart rate increase. If Small is workable, i can get the small and adjust to it, or Medium if the small would be a ridiculous decision. In this forum, i have seen a taller person(184cm) recommending definitely small, for example. As there are two choices, medium or small, if i am at the border, would you recommend going to small?

Regards, Onder

266

My bike fit number i gave you, are directly from my last fit, from a very experience fitter on Retul.

Onder,

I want to apologize for the delay and misunderstanding. If you got a fit in which you believe/trust/rely - fantastic! I want 2 important numbers from that fit and it’s Pad Y and Pad X. Those are numbers we need to prescribe between a small and a medium. The numbers you provided: seat height, set back, drop, and “reach” are great numbers and those can, and sounds like should be used, but to prescribe a purchase I want Pad Y (AKA Pad Stack) and Pad X (Pad Reach). Again, I can act with some of your body bits but I prefer the Pad Y and Pad X from that fit.

And…I want to go one step further… let’s say that Pad Y and Pad X was never written down after the fit - that’s okay. I still want the Pad Y and Pad X off this good position that you have.

What I’d ask you to do is take your existing bike, get it pretty darn level (kitchen floor maybe - resting against the cabinets so straight up and down that it’s nearly tipping over). Then, drop a plumb line (even if this is makeshift like tying a string to a salt shaker) off the back of your arm pad (front wheel has to be straight in-line with frame) so it’s nearly touching the floor. Then measure the gap between that string and the center of your bottom bracket. That’s Pad X to rear of pad. Then do it again this time dangling the plumb line from the front of the pad. I want both those numbers. Then - and this one I fear is a two person job, but maybe not - put one end of a level on top of the arm pad and hold the other end (or middle) of the level right beside the nose of saddle. Then measure from the base of that level down to the center of the bottom bracket - that’s your Pad Y.

If you can do this - if you’re willing to do it. That’s a more accurate number and one from which I’d prefer to work. HOWEVER, if this isn’t possible then I can make an estimate with your height and saddle height.

Let me know, Ian

267

Thanks Ian, I did the measurements you mentioned:
For PadX: The projection of rear of the arm pad to bottom bracket to center of BB is 18.25 inches. Interestingly, the nose of the saddle projected dead on center of BB.
From the front of the pad, this number is 22.875 inches.
For PadY: From the bottom of level on arm pad to the center of BB is 24 inches exactly.

Hope these can give you reference as to what my size would be, and how much wiggle it pay provide if i were to fit again in future on that given size.

Regards, Ian

268

Thanks Ian, I did the measurements you mentioned:

Onder

I did some conversions and some math and here are numbers with which you should be confident:
Pad Y 609mm & Pad X 523mm (this is to the center of the pad)

There are two ways you can go - as you are already aware…

2019 Canyon Speedmax SLX, size small, long stem, pads one hole back from the furthermost mounting position and 45mm of arm pad pedestal. You can do that configuration with either the flat bar bar or the rise base bar.

—or----

2019 Canyon Speedmax SLX, size medium, short stem, pads one hole back from the furthermost mounting position and 15mm of arm pad pedestal. Again, flat bar or rise bar.

You asked me specifically a few posts ago this: …
hear your suggestions about using smaller size for aero benefit.
You asked, so here goes - I don’t participant in the rabid belief/fascination/obsession our industry (and this forum) has for aerodynamic-ness. Yes, there’s value in being slippery - yet it seems to me nearly everyone ignores the dozen or so priorities that MUST precede aero (training accurately, not being fit properly on the bike, not being skilled enough to pedal through corners or down a hill, carrying too much body fat, poor pacing, etc. etc. etc.) This is why we see venerable people (read: old) on modest bikes (read; shitty) with durable wheels (read: boxy & slow), with antique groupos (read: 9 speed), with ironic cranks (read: long), comfy helmets (read: vented) - crushing the bike splits of younger people on $10,000 bikes with disc wheels. There’s a ton of stuff that matters before aero and then the aero gains are so easily erased with goofy, foolish actions.

My guess is that if you put a size small Speedmax in a wind tunnel and tested its drag against a medium, the small would beat it. I think this is true of all makes/models - And I think that matters for one person: Lionel Sanders and nobody else.

Here are the logical considerations to take into consideration between the two bikes:

  1. Room to Move - by this I mean does one bike paint you in a corner in anyway. As it happens I think this might be the case here. You currently ride with a handle bar elevation (drop) of 114mm. That’s ~15% of your saddle height, pretty sizable. You speak of having this bike for ages and I think you, like many of us, will find as you age you’ll want to reduce the ol’ neck crane and you might soften that drop to 110mm or 90mm. It’s important to note that the small bike will only move 10 more mm - AND - you’ll have to acquire an aftermarket item (high stack flat spring) to do it. The medium will let you move 30mm in that direction if you so desire. Also, if you ever want to go longer in your cockpit the small will dead-end in 4mm and you’ll need the aftermarket TSP item to go longer.
  2. Stock comfort - I’ve already noted the TSP and high stack flat spring - it’s good to consider the elevation difference between the aero position and the pursuit bars (bull horns). The bike comes stock with the flat base bar. If you get the small the distance from the arm pads down to the brakes is 45mm for you. It might be nice to pruchase the rise base bar so that the brakes are in close reach from the aero position. On the medium there’s 15mm of gap there and, for triathlon, I think that’s better.
  3. Availability - this is no joke. I started this thread on November 21st of 2018 and there were ZERO SLXs available then. There were no SLXs available (in the US) until February 23 and for the first 10 days after that only size medium. As I type this there are S, M, and L in the 9.0 and M & L in the 8.0. How many? Who knows. When’s the next batch coming in? Who knows? I don’t know and I’ve asked important people who seem unwilling or unable to tell me. So sometimes choice is about what’s available.

If you’ve got more questions - bring 'em.

Ian

269

Ian, it sounds like Medium is a better fit to me. Your approach to the details is incredible. I really appreciated your consideration of suggesting me all this, and guiding me in sizing.

270

So I am thinking about replacing my Felt IA with a new bike. I have found out at my lst fitting that I need 2mm more but my 58 has no more room. Anywho i am thinkinf of the Speedmax CF or the CF SLX. Since you already have my fit report Ian i figure you can tell me what you suggest. I think XL is the only size that will fit me but I sent a message to Canyon and they said both models top height is 905mm. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

271

2mm is inconsequential.

272

When you need 2 mm for a proper bike fit i dont consider that inconsequential.

273

Since you already have my fit report Ian i figure you can tell me what you suggest. I think XL is the only size that will fit me but I sent a message to Canyon and they said both models top height is 905mm. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

TizzleDK

I like this one, it’s challenging.

I received the fit report but only 3 of the fields are filled in on the entire document
Fitness: 4
Fitter: MSL
Cykel: Tri

Also, I know zero Danish but I can guess from context, to be sure, I translated almost everything from Danish to English. There is no record of Pad Y & Pad X or Pad Stack and Pad Reach on this document. I get why you are focused and concerned about your saddle height - you’ve got this bike that is flawed in one specific area and that’s saddle height. However…The Pad Y & Pad X are absolute critical numbers needed to buy any and all super bikes and I need those numbers.

If the fit doesn’t produce those numbers that’s not the end of the world. There are other ways we can get them…

What I’d ask you to do is take your existing bike, get it pretty darn level (kitchen floor maybe - resting against the cabinets so straight up and down that it’s nearly tipping over). Then, drop a plumb line (even if this is makeshift like tying a string to a salt shaker) off the back of your arm pad (front wheel has to be straight in-line with frame) so it’s nearly touching the floor. Then measure the gap between that string and the center of your bottom bracket. That’s Pad X to rear of pad. Then do it again this time dangling the plumb line from the front of the pad. I want both those numbers. Then - and this one I fear is a two person job, but maybe not - put one end of a level on top of the arm pad and hold the other end (or middle) of the level right beside the nose of saddle - and, of course, get the level level. Then measure from the base of that level down to the center of the bottom bracket - that’s your Pad Y.

If this is not possible then get me just two numbers: your overall height and your saddle height.

Last three notes:

  1. I do know that that max seat height on the Speedmax SLX size large is 908mm and that’s with a saddle that’s 47mm thick (we measure that from center of the saddle rail to the top of the saddle).
  2. I too think that 2mm in seat height is, perhaps an acceptable error in measurement. To give you an example: most of us train in a cycling short and race in a tri shot. The thickness between those two pads might be 3mm.
  3. I’m willing and eager to keep working on this please get back to me when you can.

Ian

274

Hi Ian,

Stack: 590 mm Reach: 445 mm
Effectiv seat angle: >79 Saddle: COB JOF Fifty Five
Spacer under extentions/armpads: 60 mm
Height 195 cm
Weight (not telling you) :slight_smile:

Heheh.

275

Stack: 590 mm Reach: 445 mm

TizzleDK,

I’m on a mission that is greater than just prescribing Canyons. I’m an educator first and foremost. So, please hang in there for this tid bit. The terms Stack and Reach refer to a place on the frame (top of the head tube). This is a critical number for “mortal bikes” - any bike that uses a normal stem, like the Shiv that was in the list of options that your fitter offered you. Pad Stack and Pad Reach is a very different number and the one we MUST use for super bikes. I dug it out of your fit sheet and tweaked the Pad X as it was to the rear and Canyon measures to center.

Your Pad Y (Pad Stack) of 740 and Pad X (Pad Reach) of 555. Now, let’s be clear, you’re tall. Your saddle height is 887mm and your arm pad drop is 137mm. That’s a bit more than 15% - which I’d consider a healthy drop…and…with all of this taken into consideration. The Canyon Speedmax SLX won’t come up to meet you. The max Pad Y on the large is 685mm - a full 55mm lower than your number.

The Canyon Speedmax CF however will do it. You would be on an size XL with almost the max spacers to get to 740. And for the Pad X, you’d have to remove the 90mm stem that comes stock on that bike and put on a 110 stem to get out to 555mm.

Your big worry was the max seat height. I’m not even 100% sure that the XL will deliver out to 887. Let me send a note to the engineers in Germany to confirm.

Ian

276

Hi Ian, thanks for taking the time to do this and educate me. I will wait, I have prepared myself mentally in case none of the Canyons fit me and I have to look elsewhere or stick with what I have. And yes I am quite tall…built like Jan Frodeno (tall, very long legs and short torso) with the none of the ability to swim, bike or run like him. :stuck_out_tongue:

277

Ian,

Question for you. Does Canyon USA offer a tilt kit / angled spacer kit for the new CF SLX? Trying to figure out the best way to add some tilt to my set up.

Thanks!

278

Ian,

Question for you. Does Canyon USA offer a tilt kit / angled spacer kit for the new CF SLX? Trying to figure out the best way to add some tilt to my set up.

Anders,
Yes. Canyon USA has a tilt kit for the 2019 Speedmax SLX. You can choose 0 degree (no tilt) or a 7 degree tilt and nothing in between.

Ian

279

I ride a speedmax cf -18. Would itt be possible to rotate the j5-armpadbrackets (supersonic brackets) 180 degrees and switch sides to get a couple of centimetres extra armpad reach. It looks like it would be possible, has anyone tried it? I would like to keep the original stem just based on aestetics…

280

I ride a speedmax cf -18. Would itt be possible to rotate the j5-armpadbrackets (supersonic brackets) 180 degrees and switch sides to get a couple of centimetres extra armpad reach.

superdea,

Yes and yes! Just pull the extensions using that super smart/easy clamp screw and then remove the arm rests. You can flop the clap to the other side of the bar and get a bit reach out of it when you reassemble.

Ian