Any attorneys think that these charges could actually be levied against LA? If so- would you think his domestiques would tell whatever they know, if they were granted immunity and amnesty.
NYT article
SI article
yikes!!! I have wondered about fraud for years when it comes to pro athlete’s and PED’s.
This one has the makings of getting ugly
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I read the NYT article. It was a pretty good presentation on the legal basis for a fraud prosecution but totally void of any actual facts to support a prosecution. As always, lots of allegations but no proof. Lots of people think Lance is a doper and he may be one for all I know but the hard facts have just not shown up yet and its not like lots of folks haven’t already been plowing this ground pretty hard. For example, the fraud allegations are very similar to his legal fight over the unpaid bonus in 2004 or 05. $5 million is alot of money and I assume that all the stops were pulled out on that one. That claim was tried, witnesses testified under oath on both sides and Lance won. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but no one should be kidding themselves, its going to be very very hard to build a case and then convict Lance of criminal fraud.
No actual facts? hmmm…how about a lot of circumstantial evidence? Or are they so paranoid that they think everyone is out to get them? It’s not like Landis is the first to come up with accusations. It’s not like anyone ever denied that they were tossing trash bags with syringes and actogevin back in 1999.
Enough to charge? No. But enough to start an investigation, yes. And if the investigators start tracing money, it’s going to look nasty.
However, as I said before, it’s not (at all) like I want to see Lance fall. I would like to see a clean sport. What’s going to happen is that maybe they’ll bust him, and next year we will hear ‘this is a new era in cycling’ but the same dirty folks will be there. Cynical? yep…
tossing trash bags with syringes and actogevin back in 1999.
There is a huge differnce between trying Lance in the court of public opinion and trying him on criminal charges in a criminal jury trial. For example, the 1999 trash allegation you cite is the kind of stuff that, while really damning, doesn’t hold up in court. Trash coming out of Lance’s hotel does not equal a criminal conviction. They are going to need a couple people who are going to testify under oath that the saw Lance with a needle in his arm AND that can testify to what was in the needle. That’s going to be hard because anyone with that knowledge is also potentially criminally liable. Also, given the pressure, virtually constant investigations and, frankly, the cash that would be availabe for anyone who credibly turned on him, one must assume that folks willing or able to turn on him are going to be really hard to find at this point.
Finally, Lance has been tested often enough that he will inevitablly be able to come up with a negative drug test within a few weeks of any time he is alleged to have taken drugs. While that may not mean much given the tricks he may have had up his sleeve, its going to make it virutally impossible to get a criminal conviction since he gets the benefit of the doubt in a criminal trial.
If they can turn a few people, it could get interesting but Lance’s lawyers will eat Floyd Landis alive since he’s already testified under oath to lots of stuff he now claims is untrue and then there is the whole blackmail angle so he’s unusable as a witness. Lance’s lawyers will be able to spend about 2 straight weeks in front of the jury running through each of the 1000s of drug tests Lance has been subjected to that came up clean. Its going to be really really hard to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
then there is the whole blackmail angle so he’s unusable as a witness
I said the same thing earlier. Him trying to get onto either the Radio Shack or Garmin teams, and when that failed trying to get his OUCH-Bahati team in the ToC make the whole thing look like revenge after a failed blackmail attempt.
I am glad he feels like he is clearing his conscience, but he isn’t the do-good whistleblower he claims to be, it’s pretty clear from those emails he would have kept his mouth shut had he got what he wanted.
“It was a pretty good presentation on the legal basis for a fraud prosecution but totally void of any actual facts to support a prosecution”
Well, here’s the thing people seem to be forgetting…if the U.S. Federal Government is investigating this issue…we will hear no more “facts” from Landis or anyone else involved in the investigation. We might not hear anything more for quite some time if they decide to go start tracing the $. So not hearing anything more at this point is not all that unusual or unexpected. Best to wait and see what happens before assigning any implication to anyone’s silence right now, whether on the accuser or accused side.
No one is going to play games with federal investigators…they’ll remember Marion Jones’ story all too well.
Well, here’s the thing people seem to be forgetting…if the U.S. Federal Government is investigating this issue
I really think the U.S. Federal Government has a lot more important things to investigate than whether or not Lance et al used PED’s to win some bike races.
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And maybe Bonds?
Can the FBI build a RICO case, or a drug distribution case, against Lance if all the alleged activity occurred in Europe? Seems like they wouldn’t have any jurisidiction over activities that take place outside the US?
Because only being able to do one thing at once is the big drawback of the federal government. If only they’d leave Lance alone we’d probably have that oil leak capped and the deficit paid off by now.
Please. If he committed criminal acts, or if there are substantive allegations that he did, then investigating and possibly prosecuting him is exactly what the federal prosecutors should be doing.
I agree. This dead horse has been beaten so times now that pretty much every angle has been tried already in past cases.
Unless they come up with some really tangible damning evidence, which hasn’t been presented yet, this just seems like the SSDD that has been going on for the past decade.
This is going to end up in the JFK, Area 51, and Elvis conspiracies pile.
Given the antidoping laws in Europe, and the fact that the police has been involved in such cases since 1998, I am pretty certain that the Feds won’t have any issue convincing their Euro counterparts to cooperate.
I agree, Eric…except that the angle is not about the PEDs…its about the misuse of public money. And THAT is something the Federal Government takes VERY seriously (despite any impressions you might get from the lunacy that happens often on the hill).
… For example, the fraud allegations are very similar to his legal fight over the unpaid bonus in 2004 or 05. $5 million is alot of money and I assume that all the stops were pulled out on that one. That claim was tried, witnesses testified under oath on both sides and Lance won.
he “won” the case, but there was no finding of fact with regards to the doping allegations. The case never made it to jury. It was determined that it didn’t matter whether or not he doped, SCA had to pay up regardless–and that’s why the case was settled. This has been spun into “the trial proved him innocent of doping” but that simply isn’t the case. Kinda like saying “lance has never tested positive for performance enhancing drugs” (which also isn’t true), repeating a claim incessantly doesn’t make it true.
That testimony in the SCA case seems to open him up for a perjury charge at a minimum.
he would be charged for fraud, so yes, it is still fraud
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its about the misuse of public money
Well, there are still 535 people I would like to see prosecuted for that before they get around to Lance.
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I agree, Eric…except that the angle is not about the PEDs…its about the misuse of public money.
Even if there was proof of the purchase of doping products, it’s not hard to beat the whole “misuse of public money” angle. All they have to say is, “No, I paid for XYZ drugs from this account, the money from the USPS was only used for tubes and handle bar tape.”
Can the FBI build a RICO case, or a drug distribution case, against Lance if all the alleged activity occurred in Europe? Seems like they wouldn’t have any jurisidiction over activities that take place outside the US?
Not if the organization or individual doing it is based in the US or has business here. RICO cases are tried in US courts all the time involving non-US parties and activities that occurred primarily outside the US. So long as some piece of the puzzle involves a US person or entity, they can claim (or will try to claim) jurisdiction.