i am appalled by the fact that a local experienced race organization tested the water and found it unclean/unsafe to swim in, but the race director for the visiting/bigger sponsored nyc tri put people in unsafe water anyway, while claiming ahead of time that everything is fine. Did they lie to the athletes and this forum in the name of sponsorship?..the around manahattan island swim is as big a major event…athletes come from all over the world and that race canceled because it was unsafe/polluted water yet the nyc tri claimed the water was fine on the very same day!!! I want my money back!!!
where us USAT on this?!
**tomziebart **
Jul 8, 2005, 6:13 PM
Post #6 of 10 (244 views)
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**Re: NYC Tri swim update **In reply to] **Can’t Post ** I presented most of the race meetings today in NYC. We have documented water quaility tests from today and everyday this week. We also tested the water each week for the last six weeks. We will test again tomorrow. Each of these tests has come back with levels that are approved for swimming.
We would not be putting 2,012 athletes into the water on Sunday if we did NOT have documented tests that say the water ifsclean enough for swimming. The NYC parks department, the City of NY and the state of NY would not allow us to put people in the water if these tests came back saying the water was not clean enough for swimming.
I’ll be presenting the race meetings again tomorrow afternoon and announcing the swim on Sunday. Z
PS - Saw one of the Triathlete Magazine Swim Suit models at a race meeting - can not remember her name, but she is racing on Sunday!
**reggiedog **
Jul 14, 2005, 10:49 AM
Post #7 of 10 (176 views)
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**Re: NYC Tri swim update **In reply to] **Can’t Post ** “I presented most of the race meetings today in NYC. We have documented water quaility tests from today and everyday this week.”
compared to:
Manhattan Island Marathon SwimRecap
MIF was forced to cancel the official Manhattan Island Marathon Swim the day before the race, due to unsafe water quality.
The MIM was to be swum on Saturday and the Manhattan Island Foundation (which runs 12 swims in the Hudson a year, mostly on the same stretch of the river) tested on the Friday like your guys did, Z…I guess that is the difference between a Ford sponsored “test” and a test by a non-profit
You’re right, Kiri, in being concerned about this. I was there last week, spent more time in that water than the average person, and now have small after-the-fact concerns. However, only three days before the race I swam in my local OW place despite signs being posted that e-coli levels were higher than is normally considered safe, and I swam there again yesterday, ignoring the same signs. Why do I do this? Well, partially because this spot is in a river (St.Lawrence), and I “count” on it flushing (poor word choice…) itself out quickly – as reggiedog suggested last week for the Hudson. This may be pure folly, I know.
There is a major race organization here in Ontario that is scrupulous about water quality testing, and you might want to go to their website and view their standards. It is www.multisportcanada.com. In fact, last Thursday I phoned up the Multisport Canada RD, John Salt, explained how much rain was headed for NYC the next day, told him there was a history of swim-related events in the Hudson being cancelled, and asked what he thought the chances would be of the tri being turned into a du. He told me he thought it was very unlikely that the river be clean enough for his standards and that the tri swim would happen, but that of course it was impossible for him to predict with any real accuracy. I initially cancelled my hotel reservations figuring that it wasn’t worth it to travel all the way for a du, but overnight I reconsidered, made the trip, and am glad I did – in spite of some post-race red flags about the water.
Maybe USAT should have a position on this; do they even have water quality standards for their sanctioned races? As for what seem certain to be different testing criteria for the triathlon as opposed to the Manhattan Island Swim, maybe the more heavily-contaminated areas were on the other side of Manhattan, in the East River. (Isn’t the MIS around all of Manhattan?) At any rate, I would be very interested to see the results and methodology of both sets of tests!
Finally, I don’t want my money back. This is one case in which I was happy to have paid my money and taken my chances (at least for now…).
However, only three days before the race I swam in my local OW place despite signs being posted that e-coli levels were higher than is normally considered safe, and I swam there again yesterday, ignoring the same signs. Why do I do this? Well, partially because this spot is in a river (St.Lawrence), and I “count” on it flushing (poor word choice…) itself out quickly – as reggiedog suggested last week for the Hudson. This may be pure folly, I know.
I work in public health and you are asking to get sick…it is pure folly.
I’ll tell you what… This is the second year I’ve done the race and it ranks among the best I’ve done in terms of venue.
That said, my experiences in the water portion of the race are causing me to seriously think on whether or not to participate again.
Last year, I almost swam into a chair. That’s right, this wooden chair floating along. Harmless enough and it makes for a good story.
This year, as we watched the preceding waves go off, we looked down and saw two condoms go floating by over the span of about 10 minutes! We weren’t studying the water for too long either.
Perhaps the worst floats along the rocks and there’s less of this stuff farther away from the shoreline.
Both years, I’ve still felt a little oily after a shower and my throat bothered me for a couple of days afterwards.
I recall that portions of the other side of Manhattan and western Long Island were closed to swimming due to high bacteria last Sunday.
"Why do I have to have the water tested?
USAT would like each event to practice due diligence, risk management, you name it. All these fancy terms boil down to one thing - insurance!
What to test for: Inquire with the agency that governs your body of water, typically the State Board of Health, to see what its requirements are for water testing. Please ask if it can test for swim-ability and human contact. But ultimately, USAT will accept whatever criteria your agency has established and feels it will be recognized as acceptable should a lawsuit ever arise.
When to test: You should follow the guidelines established by the agency that governs your body of water. The governing agency has probably established a testing cycle and you will simply need to acquire a copy of the certificate issued closest to your race date.
Who gets a copy of the certificate: Obtain a copy of the certificate that is issued closest to your event date and keep it in your files for a minimum of three years in case USA Triathlon needs to ask you for proof in the event of a lawsuit. Ultimately, USAT is just trying to practice due diligence so that if a lawsuit were filed, it would show that you, as the race director, did everything you could to ensure that your athletes were competing under safe conditions."
Perhaps Mr. Ziebart can tell us what governing agency he used, what certification they provided to him, and what was the date of said certification. Having a certification that is not “day of” would seem to be of little value in the case of the Hudson River; it would be informative to know what testing was done that day/weekend, and by whom.
I did NYC tri and to be honest I’m thrilled they held the swim. I guess I’m just not that dainty about water quality. I can’t help but roll my eyes when people get all excited about this. I’m 44. When I was a kid we swam in Lake Michigan. I thought dead fish on a beach were normal, that all beaches had them. The local swimming facility was referred to as Lake Manure. I’m sure if they’d checked e coli levels no on would ever have gone in. Yet I’ve never heard that anyone got sick. I strongly support antipollution laws and want our lakes and rivers to be as clean as possible but, well I’m willing to swim in a little gunk. The swim was a blast. I had an 8" PR and plan to go back. Until I hear that someone is having serious health problems and not just a few loose stools then I don’t get the big deal. I guess I’ll get flamed for that but that’s how I feel.
I guess I’ll get flamed for that but that’s how I feel.
Not meant to be a flame, but what if you got sick and had your season ruined? I understand that cancelling a race is a huge pain in the ass, but I guess I’d rather not have my training messed with by something that could have been prevented.
Kiri - Please contact the RD to get information on the tests that were taken for the NTC Swim. I’m sure that they will be able to provide you with the test results as they had to provide these same results to the City of New York before the event.
I do not know where they did the test for the swim around Manhattan, but I am assuming that they must test each section of the race and one section did not pass the test. Z
that’s the nice thing about doing events. we all have the right, if not the obligation, to personally weigh course safety factors, let alone venue aesthetics in general.
i have so many races to choose from within a 3 hour drive radius that i can easily avoid a couple where water quality is a question. i decided a while back that if it didn’t look inviting for a recreational swim…i won’t do it for an event.
No, I don’t take that as a flame at all. You’re right if something serious happened and I would consider getting so sick that s/he loses a season of training serious then that would be really upsetting. But, well popping an Imodium, which BTW I did yesterday, in my world doesn’t feel like that big of a deal. I’m now starting to think it might have been from the swim, but who knows. I ate in a lot of deli’s and new restaurants so well, shit happens. The race was fun and the swim definitely was a part of that fun. I’m glad they held it. An like Tom said the unacceptable levels may have been in a different part of the river.
People who sign up for a race, take no personal responsibility, then whine, complain and (if they are real assholes) sue races and race directors so that the races fold, and insurance goes up. Races are then more expensive (insurance, etc…) and less beginners enter (more expensive) the sport. Then, lots of people who work in the tri-related industry lose their jobs - great fun. The reality is that I can’t imagine being a race director, let alone deal with some of the people who like to flame people that put on the races. Tom Ziebart, and all the other people whose life depend on tri don’t want to see anyone sick, but guess what - you can’t control everything. The Chicago Tri happens every year in Monroe Harbor. In Chicago beaches are often closed more than they are open - yet, if race directors tried to cancel that swim you’d have a 7,000 person mob raising hell at 5:00 am on Chicago’s Lakefront because “their” season depended on this race, they’ve trained for it, blah, blah, blah. Lighten up and take up softball if you want to expose yourself to less risk. You’re more likely to die or get injured on a training ride than have anything happen in a race - including getting sick from the water.
In many areas, water quality is quite variable over very small distances so it is entirely possible that the marathon was deemed unsafe but the tri could still go on. I know here in Michigan, it is not at all unusual for one beach to be closed while one just mile away tests safe.
For what it is worth, the Manhattan Island Marathon swim involves 28 miles in 3 different rivers while the NYC tri would involve less than a mile in one river so it would not suprise me at all if the marathon had to be canceled but you could still hold a tri on part of the course. I crewed for someone on the marathon swim a number of years ago and there is a dramatic difference in water quality and flow rates between the Harlem river and the East and Hudson rivers and I could see situations where the latter two could test safe while the former could still be a deathtrap.
I agree with the central theme of your statement, but am a little perplexed by the statement of “taking personal responsibility” in this particular case.
When one signs up for a race (at least when I sign up for a race anyway), one does so with the implicit understanding that all aspects of the venue will be held to some sort of acceptable safety level. In the case of the swim, this includes passing some sort of standardized water quality measurements. I’m confused how this would be the personal responsibility of the individual racer on raceday to ensure that these water tests were conducted in the appropriate matter.
Back to the original discussion - I did a bunch of swims in the Hudson in 2001 and 2002. My understanding of the water quality in around Manhattan is that the East River tends to be more problematic than the Hudson. It is certainly possible that the Swim around Manhattan could be deemed unsafe from measurements on a different part of the course that does not overlap the NYC Tri.
That said, when I did the 7.8 mile Little Red Lighthouse swim in September 2002 (George Washington Bridge to Chelsea Piers), I got an incredibly nasty rash on my neck from the dirty water getting into where my wetsuit rubbed. Coincidentally, that’s the last time I’ve swam in the Hudson.
IMO, you’re comparing apples to oranges. The water in the Hudson was fine, but that may not have been the case in the East River. In fact, I felt the water was cleaner than the water in LIS where I train. If you were concerned about infection or the like, you didn’t have to jump in. If, however, you registered for the race and didn’t want to bail, then you value your health at $125. Either way, it was your choice so a refund wouldn’t be equitable, right?
Mac, I think you and I might be thinking of the same, now defunct but very popular race that got ruined by some lawsuits. It happened before my time in triathlon so I don’t know many of the details but that race was definitely part of the reason why I wanted to speak up. You race, you’re have a loose stool, cry me a river, take a pill and get over it. You race, you crash, you have an owey, get a bandaid, get over it.
Z - you are copping out here, your post didn’t say, “they” you clearly stated “we”,
"We have documented water quaility tests from today and everyday this week…We would not be putting 2,012 athletes into the water on Sunday if we did NOT have documented tests…"
Don’t go through the effort of posting the water quality results to satisfy a few babies.
My wave started at 7, the current was fast, the water was clean. The Hudson is a big urban river. It will always have junk floating in it. If racers can’t accept that, they should find races with pool swims. Then they won’t have to worry about sharks either.
I also did this race two years ago when they did cancel the swim, after 10 straight days of rain. I thought they did a great job running the race.
Z - you represented the race to this forum on Friday with a very definitive statement about water quality and how you/we were being responsible for the athletes safety and well-being. You said “we” you can’t say “them” now…man up and do the right thing.
