I finally found at non muslim bat shit crazy religious news article. Who do these nurses think they are, not killing babies in the name of religion???. Bat shit crazy!!! Maybe their union will back them up
Why are we opening a decided issue up for debate? Lots of other people learn to do their jobs despite their personal feelings… these nurses should do the same or seek employment where they will never have to do things they are uncomfortable with.
I don’t mean to sound snarky about this issue, but if they feel that strongly about this wouldn’t they be better served working in a Catholic (or other religiously run) hospital or health care provider? I really hate having to lay off good people when necessary, but I still do it as it’s a part of my job.
Right, NO ONE can be compelled to do a job for which they have religious reasons against. And, they can’t be fired for it either or it’s lawsuit time.
Do your job, follow the law, or else you’ll be fired? That’s horrible, I think I’ll call my boss and tell him that I feel morally wrong to collect money from our clients.
Reminds me of the controversy a handful of years ago with pharmacists refusing to give out birth control. In some states that’s illegal, but I believe most were allowed to to that as long as they referred the patient to another pharmacist. Of course, their employer could have fired their ass for doing so too. So I see no problem with this from a legal or ethical standpoint. It’s their job. In a good workplace, I’d expect my boss to cut me some slack if I was clearly uncomfortable with something and there were plenty of other people who could handle it. But I wouldn’t be entitled to that, and if they were a prick I’d have to oblige or move to a new place.
i’m trying to imagine the inverse of this:
“highschool teacher given choice: teach creationism or lose job”
“local counsellor given choice: tell people single motherhood is wrong or lose job”
“local minister given choice: if you perform gay marriage, you lose job”
i know there have been a few stories like this in the news lately; i feel like one of them was along the lines of example 2, where someone had to pull the party(or church) line in a fairly secular position.
that said, i’m mostly with quel on this one. i think reasonable adults can find a way to work with this and not get legislation involved. if there are a few people on shift who are all equally qualified to do the job, and you want to back out for sincere personal/ethical reasons, i think (if i’m manager) i’m cool with that. but those are a few big ifs. i also think that both parties here live in fairly large glass houses and the best plan would be to find a way to get along.
-mike
Not trying to open a debate about abortion, but it is part of their job description. They knew that when they signed on. They should either change professions or go work at a Catholic hospital.
Not trying to open a debate about abortion, but it is part of their job description. They knew that when they signed on. They should either change professions or go work at a Catholic hospital.
The following quote is from the article. I do not know if it is an accurate statement of either fact or law.
“The hospital passed a policy and put one of the nurses who did abortions in a supervisory position and started forcing nurses to assist in abortions out of the blue,” Bowman said. “It’s in complete violation of federal and state law – that says you can’t force people to assist abortions.”
Not trying to open a debate about abortion, but it is part of their job description. They knew that when they signed on. They should either change professions or go work at a Catholic hospital.
How do you know this is true?
To me, this is more about the employee-employer relationship and not about abortion. Can an employer change policies after the employment date? At any time, can an employer require/persuade/entice an employee to break a law?
Right, NO ONE can be compelled to do a job for which they have religious reasons against.
You’re a pilot, right? I think you might see the matter a little differently if you were coming in for a landing and suddenly the air traffic controller said: “Hold it, I have to get out my prayer rug right now.”
Not trying to open a debate about abortion, but it is part of their job description. They knew that when they signed on. They should either change professions or go work at a Catholic hospital.
The following quote is from the article. I do not know if it is an accurate statement of either fact or law.
“The hospital passed a policy and put one of the nurses who did abortions in a supervisory position and started forcing nurses to assist in abortions out of the blue,” Bowman said. “It’s in complete violation of federal and state law – that says you can’t force people to assist abortions.”
This is all I could find in my very brief search (I teach employment discrimination - but not this particular issue). If I’m wrong, I’m sure JSA will point me in the right direction:
USC Title 42 Chapter 6A Sub-chapter 8, Section 300a-7
Sterilization or abortion
(a) ** Omitted **
(b) ** Prohibition of public officials and public authorities from imposition of certain requirements contrary to religious beliefs or moral convictions **
The receipt of any grant, contract, loan, or loan guarantee under the Public Health Service Act 42 U.S.C. 201 et seq.], the Community Mental Health Centers Act 42 U.S.C. 2689 et seq.], or the Developmental Disabilities Services and Facilities Construction Act 42 U.S.C. 6000 et seq.] by any individual or entity does not authorize any court or any public official or other public authority to require—
(1) such individual to perform or assist in the performance of any sterilization procedure or abortion if his performance or assistance in the performance of such procedure or abortion would be contrary to his religious beliefs or moral convictions; or
(2) such entity to—
(A) make its facilities available for the performance of any sterilization procedure or abortion if the performance of such procedure or abortion in such facilities is prohibited by the entity on the basis of religious beliefs or moral convictions, or
(B) provide any personnel for the performance or assistance in the performance of any sterilization procedure or abortion if the performance or assistance in the performance of such procedures or abortion by such personnel would be contrary to the religious beliefs or moral convictions of such personnel.
(c) ** Discrimination prohibition **
(1) No entity which receives a grant, contract, loan, or loan guarantee under the Public Health Service Act 42 U.S.C. 201 et seq.], the Community Mental Health Centers Act 42 U.S.C. 2689 et seq.], or the Developmental Disabilities Services and Facilities Construction Act 42 U.S.C. 6000 et seq.] after June 18, 1973, may—
(A) discriminate in the employment, promotion, or termination of employment of any physician or other health care personnel, or
(B) discriminate in the extension of staff or other privileges to any physician or other health care personnel,
because he performed or assisted in the performance of a lawful sterilization procedure or abortion, because he refused to perform or assist in the performance of such a procedure or abortion on the grounds that his performance or assistance in the performance of the procedure or abortion would be contrary to his religious beliefs or moral convictions, or because of his religious beliefs or moral convictions respecting sterilization procedures or abortions.
Can an employer change policies after the employment date?
absolutely. I think nearly everyone’s gotten an email from HR notifying them of some policy change, whether it’s vacation days or dress code or whatever. If you have a contract the process is more complicated/formal, and good employers will solicit input for major changes. But it happens all the time.
Can an employer change policies after the employment date?
absolutely. I think nearly everyone’s gotten an email from HR notifying them of some policy change, whether it’s vacation days or dress code or whatever. If you have a contract the process is more complicated/formal, and good employers will solicit input for major changes. But it happens all the time.
Just because it happens, doesn’t mean it is legal, right?
If an employer changes the contract of hire unilaterally without the employee being able to negotiate new (compensation) terms, is the new contract valid?
most employees are not under contract. It depends on the employment law state to state, most employees are employed at will.
most employees are not under contract. It depends on the employment law state to state, most employees are employed at will.
My understanding is that “at will” applies to termination and there are other aspects to a contract.
Are you saying there is no “contract of hire?” Suppose the employee worked for two weeks, the employer fired him and did not pay the employee. Are you saying there isn’t a “breech of contract?”
The article does not make this clear:
Are these an abortion as in “Hmm I don’t want to be pregnant anymore.” abortion?
or
Are these an abortion as in “This woman needs to have her pregnancy terminated so that she may undergo such and such treatment?” abortion?
Are you saying there is no “contract of hire?” Suppose the employee worked for two weeks, the employer fired him and did not pay the employee. Are you saying there isn’t a “breech of contract?”
Your question depends upon the particulars of state law. Assume that the agreement or contract was that you are to work for me for $10.00 and hour. I will assign your hours as I see fit. Now, if I assign you hours and you work them, I am obligated either by statute or by contract to pay you $10.00 for every hour you worked. I am under no obligation to continue employing you or to assign you additional hours. I can prospectively reduce your hourly rate and if you work at the reduced rate, then that is all I have to pay. Likewise, if you decide to quit, I can’t force you to come back. Or, if you advise that you will now only work for me for $12.00 hour, I can pay you that or stop assigning you hours.
So, are you asserting if the nurses were hired and told they did not have to do abortions and then the hospitals changed positions, a nurse would have to comply or leave his position?
(For the sake of argument, assume there is no statute regarding the abortion aspect; also, assume an “at will” state.)
Additionally, if the nurses did leave because of this change, are you saying they would lose if they sued?
I’m not an employment attoreney, but I have read where courts look at certain contracts, e.g. “contracts of hire” and “contracts of marriage” that contain other aspects that are to be considered in addition to the specific requirements contained in the contract itself. These other things to be considered may be implied due to societal expectations. I think, with respect to the “contract of hire” I have heard the term “paternalistic” used to describe the unequal footing among the parties.
In most at will jurisdictions you can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or for no reason at all. You just can’t be fired for an illegal reason.