I’ve been doing a lot of reading, a lot of testing and a lot of “research” on long distance endurance nutrition. Here are some thoughts and notes and some questions for you guys:
Keeping my nutrition plan as simple as possible has worked. Getting enough calories is key. I ran out of calories on a long run the other day and was immediately reminded of how truly disasterous the results of that can be. Mostly liquid is the way to go. I wish I could rely on the aid stations more for calories.
Now- some questions:
Once at for all- what do guys like Norman, Faris, Macca and others use? Is it top secret? I know nothing works for everyone but I’d be intersted to know… Inifinit and Perpetuem seem to be the best high-calorie liquid sources sold as a mixable powder. I’ve never tried the newer version of Carbo-Pro. Question: Is the calorie source from all of these a complex carbohydrate? At some point on the course we are all pretty much forced to mix complex carbohydrates (hammer gel, etc…) with simply carbohydrates (as in Gatorade Endurance, Coke, whatever…). Does this really do as much harm as some manufacturers claim? Give me a list of the high-calorie drinks that upset your stomach the easiest… I’d like to see if it matches my list.
Thanks in advance guys!
I haven’t raced an IM yet, IMFL this year will be my first. But, I’ve been working on my nutrition all summer long. I’ve done a few 9+ hour rides though. The one thing I’ve found is liquid. At least for me. I’ve been using cyto products. While the cyto carb and cyto mixed together isn’t the highest calorie count out there, it seems to work for me. I am hoping to try and go IMFL without needing anything from the aid stations on the bike expect for maybe some water. I am thinking cyto+cyto carb, gu, maybe a pack of shot blocks. I know already that gatorade doesn’t work for me. I’ve tried it and tried it. It just rocks my stomach. Like you, I would like to rely on the aid stations more, but I just can’t do the gatorade thing. Don’t know if this was any help or not. But, I will be watching this one as well. Still learning about the nutrition thing for long distance.
Inifinit and Perpetuem seem to be the best high-calorie liquid sources sold as a mixable powder. I’ve never tried the newer version of Carbo-Pro. Question: Is the calorie source from all of these a complex carbohydrate?
I think Infinit is a mix of complex and simple sugars. Perpetuem is primarily complex carbs.
At some point on the course we are all pretty much forced to mix complex carbohydrates (hammer gel, etc…) with simply carbohydrates (as in Gatorade Endurance, Coke, whatever…). Does this really do as much harm as some manufacturers claim?
For the sake of clarification, only ONE manufacturer cites this as a problem and that is hammer nutrition, probably in an effort to convince you to use only hammer products.
As I mentioned above, Infinit is formulated with a mix of complex and simple carbs and this is based on the concept that mixing these carb sources increases absorption.
It seems that many, if not most, people on this forum that race long-distance like Infinit (including me). Therefore, I think the idea that its bad to mix simple and complex carbs is hogwash…just my opinion…
Back to your question…I’ve tried both perpeteum and INfinit and neither upset my stomach…I just get sick of drinking perpeteum, especially in concentrated form.
My stomach is rather very nice with me. Infinit, Gatorade, Gatorade Endurance, Powerbar drink, Powerade do not upset my stomach. I have not tried the other products and I do not see why I should.
Gels (Gu, Powergel, Cliff gels and blocks, Carbo boom) works fine as well however my stomach is a bit more sensitive based on the flavor.
On the bike I only use the aid station to grab some water. 1 per lap unless it is warmer. I use Infinit.
On the run, it is whatever is available.
Keeping my nutrition plan as simple as possible has worked.
- Yep. that is why I use Infinit and do not mind stopping 30 seconds @ the SNB stop to a) stretch a bit b) “spend some time” with my familly and c) avoid having to grab gels/bottle @ almost every aid station on the bike.* Getting enough calories is key. I ran out of calories on a long run the other day and was immediately reminded of how truly disasterous the results of that can be.
- True, but do not forget electrolytes as well! I personally can run for 2hours with only 1 gel (and some water).* Mostly liquid is the way to go.
- Yep but I also take bananas, pop tart, baggels, cereal bars, etc. on long ride because it is cheaper :)* I wish I could rely on the aid stations more for calories.
Cheers,
Fred.
I have only done one IM (Vineman) and experienced mixed results. On the bike, I take in (per hour): ~3/4 bottle Carbo-Pro, 1.5 bottles of water, 6+ endurolytes (e-caps), 1 cliff bar and one gel (hammer gel or Accel gel). I have not had any GI issues coming off the bike and I was able to avoid cramping. My run nutrition is less defined (primarily as I rely more on what is on course). During run at Vineman, I drank one bottle of Carbo-Pro then relied on water/ice from aid stations until about mile 19. After that, I drank water and flat coke (which didn’t seem to help or hurt). I also took in 4-6 e-caps/hr and 1 Hammer/Accel gel ~45 min. After mile 5, I started to feel bloated. This feeling lasted the rest of the run. After finishing, I vomited A LOT of fluid. I am not sure when/why my stomach stopped absorbing.
As you can see, I take in a lot of calories (550/hr) and salt on the bike. I intentionally drink an excess of water not only to help keep me cool & hydrated but to also make sure my body can excrete excess salt. But considering the conditions were warm (~90F and sunny) and my history of consistently developing leg cramps during half irons under similar conditions, it worked reasonably well for me. FWIW, I finished ~11:30 which includes almost 15 min to change a flat and pick up supplies at special needs. My best half before this year was 5:10.
I hope this helps. If anybody has any insight on how to avoid the bloating issue, please educate me.
Tom,
For IMAZ 07, I based my nutrition plan solely on a Perpetuem/Electrolyte mix. My mistake was not being able to handle the taste throughout the race, so I was forced to use on-course nutrition. The mixing of complex/simple carbs did not pose a problem. The only things I would change from my previous nutrition scheme, would be to add flavor to my Perpetuem mix with some Hammer Gel. Also, maybe consume some fruit on the bike. I found that just maintaining a liquid diet made me feel hungry. So next time I will make it a point to chew something, even if it is just for psychological reasons. Good luck on your race.
Tom,
I havent done full IM yet, only HIM but as an anecdote to some of your questions since I use exclusively hammer products for several reasons (have tried accelearade and others before but stuck to hammer). First I dont like excesively sugary/flavoury stuff and I might be some of the exceptions in these cases but I use unflavoured Heed (although this is for short stuff) and unflavoured Sustained Energy plus I only like 2 or 3 flavours of gels.
I used to have only hammer gel as breakfast close to the event start (as suggested by steve born) and I think it worked since I never felt “empty” at the beginnig of events (sprints and Oly).
For HIM it was not recommended (by someone else, not hammer) to do just that even though I have been warned about mixing the complex/simple carbs but I did the trial for some training bricks and HIM FL. Had 2 ensure’s 3 hours before start plus 2 gels 20 minutes before start. I didnt have any GI problems during the swim or during my bike/run bricks while doing this (although for the bricks which will last no more than 3 hours I only had 1 ensure). I use exclusively sustained Energy during the bike with a bottle of around 900 calories plus a gel just for a little flavour. I was also very hesitant to mix my run nutrition (hammer gel) with coke during the race since the only time I tried in training I had significant GI problems even hours after the run and I am not one to have GI problems at all either during races or runs, it was more like a painful fullness feeling. During the run at HIM FL I was already struggling (for reasons not related to nutrition or the race itsefl but the previous 2 days) and I decided to give the coke a shot so I had one cup at the stations for the last 5 miles or so (I dont think the stations were every 1 mile) so I think I probably had like 3 cups of coke before finishing and didnt notice any GI issues during or after.
Peace
I agree, and I regard the Hammer Nutrition mania toward simple sugars as predominantly sales oriented (although I like and sell their products). I think the Infinit stuff is actually better.
Tom,
IMoo will be my first IM. I come from a swimming and cycling background but the running is all new (within the last year or year and a half) to me. Also, the pacing/nutrition for IM is also new to me but I am trying to learn it before 9/9!
I’ve done 4 100+ mile rides over the last 6 Saturdays to work on pacing but also nutrition. For what it’s worth, here are my summaries:
Ride 1: 112 miles/2 mile run. Avg 18.2 mph, 6,500 climbing, 156 hr avg (Mid zone 2). For nutrition I had two bottles of Infinit custom blend (about 400 calories each) and about 6 gels, 2 bottles of water (48oz). I tried a gel every hour, along with salt tabs also after the second hour. By the end of the ride I felt like a stuffed sausage and coudn’t run at all without spiking my HR. Stomache felt like it was sloshing around and bloated. Lesson learned, not nearly enough H2O, too much sport drink/gel in stomache without the H2O led to my problems. Run was supposed to be 4 miles but it wasn’t happening due to stomache.
Ride 2: 104 miles/3 mile run. Avg 18.5 mph, 6,300 climbing, 147 hr avg (upper zone 1). Concentrated more on taking the first hour easy, then building from there but still staying within myself on the pacing. For nutrition I went with the same as above but substitued a clif bar (240 calories) at halfway instead of gel. Ended up with about 3 gels taken. Also made sure I took water after every sip of Infinit and or gel. Ended up with 4 bottles H2O, or about 13-14 oz per hour of water. Stomache felt much better, only problem was that Clif bar made me have to stop for a quick poo stop at the state park at about mile 65. Run was a scheduled 30 minute run but I just did an easy 3 miles (at about an 8:40 pace) keeping hr in zone 1.
Ride 3: 118 miles, no run scheduled. Avg 18.6 mph, 6,600 climbing, 144 hr avg. Better speed, lower HR for this ride, plus it was longer than the previous weekends. Same nutrition plan as above but I split the clif bar and ate half at 1.5 hrs, the other half at 3 hrs and then took gels every hour starting on the 4 hr mark. Same water intake (about 13-14 oz/hr), salt tabs starting at the 3 hr mark and every hr thereafter. Stomache felt the best, but still had to stop for natures’ calling due to the clif bar. Ended up with about 1,200 calories, or about 6-800 less than my coach thinks I should take in during the IM bike leg in prep for the run. It was good nutrition for a 118 mile ride, but wasn’t enough to fuel me for a marathon yet to come.
Ride 4: 105 miles/4 mile run. Avg 18.7, about 7,500 climbing, avg hr 153 (low zone 2). Lots of hills, several nice long steep ones. HR was higher than last 2 rides but 75% of the ride was on unexpectedly freshly tarred and chipped roads. Tough going. For nutrition I said no gel and no solids. Took two bottles of infinit, one concentrated to about 1,000 calories (in a 24 oz bottle) and the other to about 700, also in a 24 oz bottle. Sipped this every 10 minutes religiously, followed by a sip of water. Took another sip of water also every 5 minutes. Took salt at 3 hour and 5 hour mark as it was hot and humid out and I didn’t want to cramp. Had gels just in case, but never felt like I needed them. This was by far my best ride nutrition wise. For whatever reason the gel just makes me feel ‘full’. Went for a 4 mile run where I just parked my HR in zone 2 and did about 8:25 min miles and actually felt pretty ‘refreshed’.
So for me, I am going with the strictly liquid diet on the bike, most likely sans gels. Unless something changes I will take one bottle concentrated infinint on the bike with me and carry water from aid stations on the other bike holder. I will use all the inifinit by about the special needs on the bike and have a second bottle of concentrated infinit waiting for me there to switch out. This way I am only carrying 2 bottles (1 infinit, one water) at a time. My only worry is something happening to my 2nd bottle, but if that does I will have gels with me and just go with gel/water for second half.
For the run I plan on taking water every station and sports drinks every other. I also have been going sans caffeine on everything and will only start taking coke once I get to about mile 15-18 on the run. Then, it will probably be a matter of survival for me the last 8-10 miles!
Best of luck to you at IMoo.
Just doing a synthesis of prior posts on related topics should make a good sampling to answer your questions.
3 IMs experiences.
Bike: liquid (Infinit) + gel (Hammer) works best for me. After a few hours, I get tired of drinking sweet tasting liquids and enjoy the option to switch to gel washed up quickly with water (aid stations).
Run: gel + water (same reason as above), switching to Coca cola once in a while to get caffeine + sugar boost.
Besides bonking a couple of times, my only unpleasant nutrition experience has been bloating when drinking fluids with too much proteins (Perpetuem). I have mixed sugar + complex carbs many times without any issues.
I’ve found that my stomach stops processing solid food 2-3 hours into the bike at race pace, sometimes quicker if it’s hot, so I’ve also been experimenting with moving to a completely liquid source for calories as well. First attempts involved trying to use what would be common on courses, gatorade and gel, however, found it too difficult getting the mix just right as far as gatorade to gels (and tossing in electrolyte supplements and water to the mix) and found my stomach almost inevitably bloating. Slowing down of course could alleviate some of these symptoms, however, that was going to be a last option for my experiments.
I looked into using the popular powder mixes for all my calories, but those recommending this option all seem to rely on picking up bottles at the special needs and to me special needs is just that–I only want to have to rely on it under special circumstances (for example if I get a flat early in the race I put a spare tubular in there, no flat don’t bother slowing/stopping for special needs)–I don’t want to have to rely on getting my bag if I don’t have to. So I’ve been looking for a way to carry enough calories with me in one bottle and have to only pick up water along the way.
What I’ve been pretty successful with recently has been taking a 24 ounce water bottle and putting about 20 gels in there and adding another 4 ounces of water to make the solution a tad more viscous. I use a clear bottle with lines drawn with a permanent marker marking 2 ounce servings which helps me monitor uptake. That gives me about 2000 calories in one bang to be diluted with water picked up from the course and supplemented with a couple lava salts every hour. Throwing in a couple different flavors of gel also allow some custom flavors which can be nice. Figure I can put a “just in case I lose my main bottle” spare in special needs as well (again won’t stop unless I have to), or simply use the gels on course. Very simple and has worked well for all my recent long rides and bricks. An added bonus is there’s also no time spent messing about opening gel packets or having to wait for an aid station to discard empties. The only main drawback for me with this is that the gel bottle is a pretty heavy addition to the bike, at least initially.
RE: Hammer - not to mix with simple.
They only say that to keep things simple. Most manaufacturers make mixing directions based on osmolality that is why it is really important to follow those directions. If you take gel + hammer then you screw up the concentration and greatly increase the osmolality you are drinking and hence will have problems later on.
Hammer’s makes good stuff but you just have to understand there use. It is primarily maltodextrin just like carbo-pro (it is just a different grade). Malto is probably the best thing you can use to make up the bulk of your drinks since it keeps the concentration low and is easier on the stomach than simple sugars (especially fructose).
So, I would just add simple sugars to hammer but add more water to keep the concentration down. Or, you could use infinit because they can do this for you and ensure the concentration is set right.
The fast guys - you may be surprised at what they try and what problems they have and the variety of solutions.
Scott
In my 10th IM I found the correct mix for my sensitive stomack:
1 bottle of sport drink each hour on the ride + a bit water depending on the heat. 280 gram pure maltodextrin + salt mixed in one bottle as extra energy. 3 gels on the run. Mix of coke and sport drink first half of the run, pure coke the rest of the run.
Tom,
I have no idea what the top Ironman pros use. However, I do know that most of the top marathon runners use pure maltodextrin (and have since the 80s).
Therefore, based upon feedback from a coach/M.D./9:20 IM friend of mine, I use pure maltodextrin in racing and training (actually, even Michael Folan agreed that this wasn’t a bad plan when we shared a house at IMCdA in 2006). You can find many sources of high-quality malto on the internet. It’s about $40 for a 50# bag (MUCH less expensive than any other product available…And many of these products are simply buying malto from the same source). You can then flavor the malto with Crystal Light or Hammer Gel.
I weigh 68 Kilograms and utilize 65 grams of carbohydrate per hour during the bike (carried in a high-density mix in one bottle per 56 miles) and initial 10k of the run. After that, I switch to simple sugars offered on course (mostly because I don’t like to carry extra gear when running). I do not have problems with simple sugars at that point.
I’ve also found that both Sustained Energy and Infinit are OUTSTANDING products. I would recommend either of them to athletes who don’t want to worry as much about ordering from a distributor and mixing their own concoctions…Actually, I’d argue that Infinit is the most intelligent approach to drink development on the market if you want something pre-mixed.
Gatorade and Cytomax both shut my stomach down too easily. I love the taste and find them “refreshing,” but my stomach usually pays the price if I use either of them on the bike.
I take Endurolyte pills to control my electrolyte replacement (I adjust the quantity based upon a personal formula utilizing temperature and humidity).
Keep it simple. Carry your own. Stick to liquid. Race hard, ignore the taste, and enjoy a good meal after the event.
Cheers,
Puskas
Excellent info. Thank you!
Given that most replies stress the “carry your own” approach and focus on the bike portion, what do you guys do on the run? Do you carry your own on the run as well, or do you switch over to what’s on-course at that point?
what do you guys do on the run?
**
I’ve been making a gel out of my infinit mix and putting it in a flask that I keep in my Forza tri shorts. This has worked out great. I really don’t feel the flasks at all after a short warm-up and the gel has been working like a charm in keeping my nutrition up. For IMLOU, I plan on two flasks with me on the bike to add to water and two in my tri shorts on the run.
I’ve used Accelerade, Cytomax, Gatoraide, Power bar drink(Whatever that’s called), and a bunch of others. The flavor of Perpetuem turned me off instantly and both Accelerade and Cytomax turned on me. Not had any issues with the others as far as stomach goes. I’ve not used Infinti in anything other than a race or two and have not had any issues with it.
Carbo-Pro and mainly liquid works well for me and I try to stay mainly liquid. But no matter what at some point I just want to chew something and have something solid in my mouth and stomach. Somewhere around 2/3 thru the bike leg I get the desire to eat something. Usually a half of bar does the trick and then it’s back to liquids.
~Matt
But no matter what at some point I just want to chew something and have something solid in my mouth and stomach. Somewhere around 2/3 thru the bike leg I get the desire to eat something. Usually a half of bar does the trick and then it’s back to liquids.
~Matt
Same here. I know a lot of people don’t care for them, but when I get an urge for solid food, I really like the Clif Blocs. They feel enough like solid food to satisfy the urge, but I can digest them easier than a bar.
Way too complicated formulas to remember during a race.
My “plan”:
Breakfast 2,5 hrs before: rolls, coffee, Applejuice+Water (“Normal” breakfast for me, low fibre)
10 min before the start: 0,5 liter of Powerbar Hydro Plus
Ride:
5 bottles of whatever is available (mainly Powerbar Hydro Plus)
8-12 PB-Gels
2-3 PB-Bars
Run:
2-3 Gels if possible
Coke+Water and Sportdrink+Water alternating at aid stations
no “special feedings”, no calculations, no pills, no saltsticks (they are for animals where I come from) … Never had a problem by now. Problems I have seen when:
- Try things on race day
- Eat “healthy” (fibre rich) food on the day before
- Put everything (protein, carbs, kitchen sink) into a magic potion and then either loose it or vomit it all over the place
- Use protein containing sportdrink after having them in the sun for hours
- Be dependent on special feedings and missing it
- Use lots of variance and real food during the race