Quick question, and sorry if this was rehashed earlier. A quick search didn’t bring this up. Is the fastest swim draft on the hip, or on the feet?
And 2nd question; what’s up with the kicking your feet like you’re pissed off and trying to knock some teeth out from the people that get their toes touched every now and then from someone drafting. Is it painful? Does it tickle? Has your space been invaded? Just curious. I’ve swam on both sides of the swim draft. Who cares
To answer your second question - I always kick harder when someone touches my toes, its just an automatic response. Its unexpected and just seems like a natural response.
If you’re going to draft me don’t be annoying and touch my feet.
It is directly on the feet, inches from “never” touching them. Just take a look at any pro race with 10 guys off the front, and the leader hammering. They string out in a straight line, every single time. Now if it slows down, then you get side by side, creepers moving here and there, but when the pedal is to the metal, single file all the way…
And yes, if you touch someone, your are invading their space. It happens occasionally, and if you are the offender, make sure to open your hands and just slip them off the persons feet in front of you. That way you dont force their feet down, thus making them work harder. If I feel hands on my feet and it is this soft touch, I know the person is attentive and just slipped up. If they hit my feet and slam them downward or even do a little grab after the touch, then you know it is a douchbag, and they might need some convincing to move back a few inches…
Since I always swim behind someone faster than me, I pay very close attention not to make them mad. Just try to be silent behind them, especially if they are swimming the perfect pace, dont want surges when you are close to maxed out already…
Quick question, and sorry if this was rehashed earlier. A quick search didn’t bring this up. Is the fastest swim draft on the hip, or on the feet?
And 2nd question; what’s up with the kicking your feet like you’re pissed off and trying to knock some teeth out from the people that get their toes touched every now and then from someone drafting. Is it painful? Does it tickle? Has your space been invaded? Just curious. I’ve swam on both sides of the swim draft. Who cares
On the hip, but it’s harder to hold that position.
Nope, you generally end up with contact and slowing them down this way.
definitely on the feet. Just still sight regularly to make sure your target is swimming straight
touching my feet is usually accompanied by ankle grabbing and general interference, so if you’re doing any of that I’ll going to kick harder. Also, usually if someone is drafting on me, it means I’m usually the faster swimmer so I’ll put in a quick surge to try and gap them. You’re my competitor, I’m not gonna just pull you along, I’m gonna drop you if I can.
I have to say this is so reassuring to read - agreed 100%. I don’t very often get to compare this kind of thing with training partners.
To answer the questions:
Quick question, and sorry if this was rehashed earlier. A quick search didn’t bring this up. Is the fastest swim draft on the hip, or on the feet?
And 2nd question; what’s up with the kicking your feet like you’re pissed off and trying to knock some teeth out from the people that get their toes touched every now and then from someone drafting. Is it painful? Does it tickle? Has your space been invaded? Just curious. I’ve swam on both sides of the swim draft. Who cares
I am going to disagree with Monty and say In my experience it is always the hip and riding their bow wave but it is very hard to do. It is also super annoying for that swimmer so if they are faster than you then you might slow them down a bit as you knock them off their rhythm while catching a free ride. I would love to see some empirical data on this. Anyone have anything??? I realize CFD probably wouldn’t be able to calculate the actual “bow riding” part completely as that is much more a technique driven sort of savings.
I consider someone touching my feet while drafting to be both an annoying distraction and an invasion of space. As other said, if it happens once it’s not a huge deal and I’ll try and ignore it, if it happens repeatedly I will be very unhappy, and I will attempt to dissuade them from continuing. It’s not as bad as someone trying to swim over the top of you despite the fact there’s plenty room to swim alongside. Triathlon is NOT a contact sport.
If you’re going to draft me don’t be annoying and touch my feet.
Same for me but if you do, try to minimize it.
If you’re going to draft me don’t be annoying and touch my feet.
Same for me but if you do, try to minimize it.
I can deal with some feet touching but I’ve had far too many times where it’s an ankle grab which I’m never quite clear how grabbing happens as that’s not a natural part of the pull on ones swim stroke
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Nope, you generally end up with contact and slowing them down this way.
I recall reading some in-depth analysis that said on the HIP is faster. Slowtwitch has a disagreement on this issue … unsurprising!
We had a pool with nobody in last summer with a friend, so we made some experimentations.
Hips is way faster than feet, but its a very invading behavior and nobody would let you do it the way we were doing it.
You ask why would people be mad about getting drafted , even if you’re not touching the feet ? because it’s harder. We did a blind test where I didn’t know if he was close to my feet or far, then he did it and 10 times out of 10 we guessed right because it was way harder to go at the same speed.
I feel like I’ve seen videos where they looked at this. Hip might be faster/easier-effort for the drafter, but has much more affect to slow the lead swimmer down when compared to feet. Not sure how scientific that is, but it’s been my thought process since then. I’m barely a good enough swimmer to occasionally draft someone feet much less hips, so I have no experience.
On the kicking thing, I have no problem being touched. I know I’ve touched people. Sometimes its unavoidable. But take care to not power through them. The people who treat it like you shouldn’t be in the way of their stroke, pushing down, grabbing, repeatedly doing it …they can get a few extra powered kicks. Let’s them know and gets me out of there faster.
My take on hip vs feet is that I aim for the hip as it gives me the option of dropping to the feet if I can’t keep the pace.
Learn both. Learn to breathe to your weak side so you can follow on either hip.
As for kicking I don’t like being tickled so I reflex kick anyways. 2nd or 3rd time or a grab then I get annoyed.
From what I can find:
Drafting reduces energy consumption by 10%, levels of lactic acid by 31% and RPE by 21%.
https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/1886484
8 high level triathletes did 10-17 tries and wound up saving 3.2% at the same stroke rate. The passive resistance (i.e no swimming, but dragged through the water) of the water was found to be 13% lower while drafting at 1,7m/s (59s/100m) and 26% lower at 1,1m/s (1,31/100m).
While swimming, the resistance increases somewhat according to this study, from 20% while dragged through the water to 9% when the person in front swims. Sidemark: the active resistance of the water increased by 8% when swimmers swam side by side.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19276849
Staying 50-100cm behind the arm of the swimmer in front of you reduces the drag by 6-7% according to this study. Behind and slightly to the side.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10678070_Drafting_Distance_in_Swimming
Dunno if that answers your question, but I remembered reading some of the articles a few years ago and thought they adressed your question, at least to some extent.
I don’t know what’s faster. All I can say is you can touch my feet once but anymore than that I’m going to find my inner Ralph Macchio and kick like I mean it. Constant touching is distracting and annoying. You want to draft me that’s fine but I don’t want to know about it.
If you touch my feet multiple times, I see that as aggressive and I will be aggressive right back. You are throwing me off of my swimming rhythm either by accident or purposely. I don’t know your intentions. You might be trying to cheat by throwing me off my rhythm. Therefore, I will let you know of my intentions to not tolerate it. The same goes for you being closely behind me on the bike.
I feel like I’ve seen videos where they looked at this. Hip might be faster/easier-effort for the drafter, but has much more affect to slow the lead swimmer down when compared to feet. Not sure how scientific that is, but it’s been my thought process since then. I’m barely a good enough swimmer to occasionally draft someone feet much less hips, so I have no experience.
On the kicking thing, I have no problem being touched. I know I’ve touched people. Sometimes its unavoidable. But take care to not power through them. The people who treat it like you shouldn’t be in the way of their stroke, pushing down, grabbing, repeatedly doing it …they can get a few extra powered kicks. Let’s them know and gets me out of there faster.
From what I understand, you save more energy drafting on the hip, but it slows down the leading swimmer, so if your goal is to move faster, you’re better swimming on their toes rather than their hip. If you’re trying to stay in and conserve energy, then the hip is where it’s at…
In terms of toe touching, I think most people reflexively kick hard for a few strokes if you touch their toes, as a natural way to preserve their space… I’ve never felt that someone has intentionally been hitting my toes in a race before, it’s more the accidental touches in the chaos of the start…