My imperfect N=1 leads me to believe the ~4% figure. Ran a half a few months ago in almost new Varporfly 4%'s in 1:29 with plenty left in the tank vs. an expected finish of 1:32-1:34. Good conditions that day and I don’t train or compete enough to have a super dialed in sense for where my time should be. Nothing in my previous few years runs would have led me to believe I could run 1:29 (after burning a lot of time in the finisher chute with my daughter) though. Previous halfs have been 1:30-1:34 with a DNF thrown in there which would have been 1:35+. I previously ran in Gel Kayanos which obviously were on the complete opposite end of the spectrum of shoes.
Just a reminder that David Jewel designed an almost identical carbon span in the Zoot shoes starting in 2009 through 2012. I still run in the TT 7.0, purchasing new ones on Shoebacca. I race in the Kiawe which also has the span. When Dave left Zoot and they went to an foam injected traditional sole I immediately noticed the difference. The shoes felt “flat†to me. The TT’s feel like that slap off the pavement.
The weight difference alone would give you around 8s/mile which would be 2 min and explain pretty much the entire improvement, so no it wasn’t any magic shoes 
.
For those who have used them, I’m curious on your thoughts on this particular point made in the article:
Unlike most running shoes, they have a carbon-fiber plate in the midsole, which stores and releases energy with each stride and is meant to act as a kind of slingshot, or catapult, to propel runners forward. Compared with typical training shoes, the Vaporflys are believed to wear out quickly: Some runners have said they lose their effectiveness after 100 miles or so.
Is that right? How frequently are you replacing them?
I’ve only run about 60 miles in mine, so early days. Will be interesting to see if it’s true though.
Cheers, Rich
I’ve only run about 60 miles in mine, so early days. Will be interesting to see if it’s true though.
Cheers, Rich
So you’re not using them in training? Just for racing?
From reading reports the Streak doesn’t have the same cushioning as the Vaporfly and I wouldn’t be doing an Ironman in a set like I would consider the Vaporfly. I still want a pair to satisfy my curiosity but hate the fact what Nike is doing giving limited supply to jack the price. I generally run in Hoka so hoping they release a reported carbon plate version soon as I am sure it will be readily available.
I generally run in Hoka’s as well, but have a pair of Vaporflys I am doing one long a week in and a pair of Vaporfly’s I am only racing in. I do plan to run IM in them in 7 weeks, with possibly putting a old pair of hoka’s in my special needs at mile 13 if I really needed them for some reason. I can only give you my thoughts on the shoe which could be skewed with how the marketing is playing with my head.
Hello tuckandgo and All,
tuckandgo: "*Hi, what if it is true? *
I’m not sure of the point you are trying to make? Aero kit is faster than flappy kit, aero TT bike is faster than sit up and beg bike. Nike shoes faster than converse… etc. "
Posted for general interest … and perhaps a way to go faster … or would a spring in the shoe be illegal?
What is old is new again: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=1558494#p1558494
Excerpt:
Since debuting on the market five years ago, Spira Footwear has been providing runners with comfort and protection from injury with its spring technology placed in the soles of the shoes. Spira’s patented WaveSpring technology reduces impact force on a runner’s body, which leads to an efficient recovery and less overall stress - signifying that the WaveSpring technology may be the most significant technical advancement achieved in the footwear industry in recent years. Spira’s shoes - and its WaveSpring technology - violates rule 143.3 (a) of the USA Track and Field which specifically bans springs in shoes for competition. The rule has yet to be enforced, but that has not stopped Spira from pushing the issue.
“Amazingly, this rule has the effect of putting our shoes in the same category as steroids,” said Andy Krafsur, CEO for Spira Footwear. "While we’re pleased that the rule has not been applied to disqualify runners who compete in our shoes - such as the top five male finishers and top two female finishers - the fact is that competing in Spira violates the plain language of the rule and we would like it overturned.
https://www.orthoticshop.com/spira-aquarius-mens-training-shoes-with-springs.html
The WaveSpring® is a stable and lightweight spring that is placed in the heel and forefoot of our shoes. Each spring is calibrated based upon the size of the shoe and helps protect against fatigue, stress, shock and impact forces.
PF Flyers make you “run faster, jump higher.” I somehow doubt that Nike has tested these shoes against PF Flyers. I doubt a mere 3% to 4% is going to be enough to overcome the inherent advantages of the PF Flyer.
While I would love to see a well-controlled double-blind study, I have to be happy with someone at least doing some level of testing. It looks like the big winner out of this is the Nike Streak because of its performance and general availability. I still haven’t been able to get my hands on a pair of Vaporfly 4%.** I am sure I could have scoped out eBay but I am just not willing to pay those prices**. I did try the Zoom Fly (non 4%) and it was my least favorite shoe of all time.
I also found the IAAF rules and reg interesting. I assumed there might be something in there but good to know…
The rules also state that shoes “must be reasonably available to all in the spirit of the universality of athletics."
I’ve seen this a lot and it is funny to me, and a little nonsensical. you would pay $250 retail, but not $300 after market? i’m completely guilty of overpaying for convenience all the time (that’s why I got mine on eBay), but we’re talking about running shoes. that’s like waiting for the Mercedes sales events if you’re in the market for an AMG. is it a principle thing? all that said, $250 is ridiculous for running shoes, but if you have the means, and you want them, then get them.
IIRC we have a size 12 in stock at The Running Shop in Tucson AZ. It’s the only pair in the store. PM me if you’re interested and I’ll double check
There was a running shop in either Memphis or Nashville that had a few pair (3 iirc in various sizes) in stock.
Nikes B2B website showed 0 availability in any size when I checked ~ 2 weeks ago
I will be doing a more detailed write up on this. I’m looking at it from two angles. First through One on one with athletes. Second through the market research that I do. This year alone I’ve analyzed 180,000 runners at marathons, 1/2 marathons and triathlons in the USA and Europe. My data goes to gender, finishing time and model of shoe.
My two big takeaways from all of this.
-
The Vapor Fly 4% has turned the excitement in the running shoe business around. We were stuck in a copy cat business. Everyone was basically doing the exact same shoe with a different logo. I said it long ago that even Hoka with their ultra unique ride would move their shoes to the middle of the shoe wall trying to get closer the the Brooks Ghost and Adrenaline. The Vapor Fly 4% shows that innovation is not dead and that if you ask the right questions about what the functional needs and wants of runners you can innovate into something big. The results are very big for Nike. Those of you hoping another brand copies this and does it cheaper I certainly hope not. I hope this inspires them to ask better questions and innovate their own shoe.
-
The Vapor Fly is not for everyone. I would say the shoe is not helping and is possibly slowing the runner down for 20% of the people running in it. If you have compromised hips, no glute activation, and run like a duck your foot will simply roll right off the platform. I see it regularly. I’ve got pictures where it looks like the runner is actually putting arch to pavement. Fix the mechanical problems first. It’s never too late to address them. Then find the right shoe.
Nike’s whole approach with this shoe makes no sense to me. Why advertise something so heavily and not make it readily available? I’m still seeing the commercial on TV. Yet even after having had over a year to ramp up production, they still can’t supply more than a few small batches at a time?
I My guess is the new pegasus turbo selling well will be a gateway to seeing much more vaporflys in the wild.
Im guessing the vaporfly is a hard shoe to mass produce, period, and the foam is definitely harder to produce then standard foam. With another shoe (and a more mass market one) using that foam, Im guessing the cost to produce will come down … and maybe we start to see more of them
Nike’s whole approach with this shoe makes no sense to me. Why advertise something so heavily and not make it readily available? I’m still seeing the commercial on TV. Yet even after having had over a year to ramp up production, they still can’t supply more than a few small batches at a time?
Sounds like Tesla! Is Nike taking deposits / orders on future production yet?
There are two things one that is probable and one that is a reality.
Probable - Nike is famous for the Pull Marketing campaigns. If you are old enough and can remember people standing outside a Footlocker waiting for the release of the next Jordan. That’s pull marketing at it’s finest. They want to pull you in and for some customers they want to leave you wanting. The purposefully limit the production so that not everyone can buy one immediately.
Reality - Pbax is really hard to mold into a midsole. It’s not molded the same way as EVA and requires a much larger up front investment and it’s much slower. Those two things have much to do with the availability.
It’s doubtful they will ever put themselves in an overstock situation on the shoes. Most likely they will always be in short supply. They will probably improve the overall supply of the shoe but it’s in their best interest to keep demand high and supply low.
If we look at the Nike business in total they are right now losing share to adidas and have been for a number of quarters. Adidas has taken share in the really big important business of sneakers. The adidas product simply looks better and the Nike product looks old. If this continues and their numbers continue all bets are off on running. They may turn the nozzle up on running to make up for losses elsewhere. They have not done that yet.
Being a loyal Kinvara user for several years with a couple of Hoka Claytons mixed in I was skeptical but gave in to hype and bought a pair Vapor 4%s in April. With 66 miles on 4% I ran Lake Wobegon Trail Marathon in May and had a PB by 7+ minutes, beat my BQ by 8+ minutes. In June ran the Garry Bjorklund Half with 111 miles on 4%, PB by 2:56. Last Saturday had PB 5K with 187 miles on them. Not sure how to correlate the PB’s with the shoes but I like running in them. I think I’ll get close to 400 miles training in them vs the Kinvara’s which I would retire by about 200. Now the question is how to get another pair?
Yup, race only, although I did buy some Zoom Fly to train with in advance as I understood they were similar, if not as fast. I wanted to get used to a similar shoe and ensure that if I needed to tweak my running style to suit the shoe I wouldn’t be doing it in a race scenario. So far my Vapor Fly have 3 races in them and a short pre-race acclimatization run just to check for hot-spots etc.
Most of my running is done in Hokas, (Clifton or Stinson) although I stick the Zoom Flys on if I want to do a bit more speed work.
Cheers, Rich
It is called Placebo Effect:
From the article:
“There still may be something we’re missing that’s not captured in the data. It’s possible that runners wear Vaporflys only when they know they are going to run faster, or that the act of wearing Vaporflys correlates with other things that indicate a runner is going to run faster.”
So if a shoe is named “4%”, that of course has Zero effect on your psyche…sure.
.
well surely there is people who believe a lot of stuff, for instance that you have to run fast in them to be faster, and this is what was certainly not confirmed despite the myth, so the anti placeo was not confirmed.
and of course a lot of it is based on a very expensive marketing campain but if we look at marathon times there is some solid evidence that elite athletes that use this shoe on the whole are a bit faster and that is over the streak which was the to go shoe for nike atheltes before ( and surely some are not faster or slower in them )
in a way what this test does is to show some trends , similar we can see from bike wndtunnel testing, that there are certain shoes that seem to work a bit better than others and some shoes like the saucony omni range from quite slow to quite good shoe, its no more than a trend and no gurantee that this will work for an individual.
besides with the hype many people bought the zoom fly ad there is 0 evidence that the marketing placebo effect works with them. So while there is likely to be placebo I would say its not too major of a factor and not the only reason.
I am glad i bought a NIke streak on the cheap on monday for 57$
There is a side benefit few ever talk about but we know is real. Anyone with this experience should let us know your thoughts.
Boston 2018 was a tough race for anyone running it. Galen Rupp pulled out of the race after roughly 20 miles. You know and I know 20 miles at race pace will beat you up. Somehow after less than 2 weeks full recovery, Rupp wen out and won in Prague in 2:06:xx. How did his legs respond to that. This is not Cam Wurf running back to back Ironman Races. This is a world class runner running on the absolute limit back to back.
The benefit I’m talking about is fatigue busting. Your legs build fatigue during a marathon purely from the pounding. It appears the Vapor Fly 4% really limits that aspect of the running. Can anyone report to this fact? If your legs don’t feel the fatigue at 20 miles of the marathon you are going to run faster. Most marathons are won and lost in the last 10K. Most marathon PR’s are made or lost in the last 10K.
It just so happens that both Cam Wurf and Galen Rupp wear the Vapor Fly 4%.