That’s intresting to hear. I thought the new rim brake version would be faster than the previous one as they smoothed out the fork/downtube junction. Do you know how much slower the new rim brake madone is than the older one?
I would assume the new rim madone would be better aero wise purely based on teh blurb on page 21:https://trek.scene7.com/is/content/TrekBicycleProducts/TK18_Madone_Whitepaper_EN-GB.pdf I’m not sure 14g out of 3200g is statistically significant (disc to rim).
I’m afraid I don’t recall. Tom may remember
I don’t know if we ever saw data for the new Madone rim - just heard that it was downgraded to avoid making the disc bike look so bad…
Pure speculation or have an actual source on that? Wondering if that is actually substaniated somewhere or if it’s just a bad game of internet telephone. All the data in the whitepaper refers back to the “current” (at the time) Madone, so don’t see a reason to downgrade the newest version, right? But I’m a glass half full type of guy most of the time.
I wish I read german. https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=154692 That said, if Trek says 9.9 to new madone is essentially a wash 14g, and someone else measures nearly 75g of drag (6.5w @30mph for 50g of drag), someone’s data is a bit off.
We never did see the data for the new madone rim. Where’d you hear that they made it slower?
From Trek. When they stated the new rim and disc models had the same drag :-/
There was a lot of discussion at the time of the release that because they decided to reverse the location of the brakes integrated into the fork, that made them not able to use as deep of a downtube cross-section as they did on the disc model. Trek stated it was because of their new cable routing, it required that location, but it’s not clear that couldn’t have also been accomplished with the brakes on the front…which would then allow a deeper downtube like the disc model…but would then end up faster than the disc. So, that “can’t be allowed” 
Thanks that was really informative. Looking at the pictures I can see that the new madone rim has a smaller downtube than the disc. I’m amazed you caught that! Though I am surprised that the fork/headtube junction + the lack of disc brakes doesn’t make up for that.
Replying in general…
I’ll go against the grain…I think it is a good update. As a former owner of two SC’s, I think the main improvements that were needed were:
- Disc brakes
- Get rid of the press fit BB (I’m assuming they did this?)
Anything else I think is icing on the cake. Of course the bike has to fit like any other bike would have to. But if the geo meets your fit needs, then good to go. And of course I’m also assuming they’ve put mounts on the back of the seat tube for an aero box like previous gen
We’ve already discussed to death how all these top end frames are so close in terms of aero that there is little to gain.
Got to agree with these 2 points.
For all the disc brake nay-sayers, rim brakes are fine and dandy when you live in a desert and have a total of 4 corners over a shit-boring motorway 112 mile bike course. Away from the arid flat piss-boring parts of America, and particularly in the wet parts of the world, discs are a real blessing. What ever is lost on aero (I don’t doubt discs add drag vs rim brakes usually) can be gained back in being able to brake later and with more confidence into each of the (guestimated) 60-80 corners needing braking for on my local full distance route (assuming the rider can handle a bike of course - no means certain in Tri).
So maybe Trek finally recognised a world outside of middle-America ?
Also it means I’ll be able to swap wheels across bikes if need be, as the road bike is already disc.
Tour magazine showed this
2019 Cannondale SystemSix Disc - 203w
2016 Trek Madone - 204w
2016 Specialized Venge ViAS - 204w
2016 Cervelo S5 - 205w
2016 Felt AR FRD - 205w
2019 Cervelo S5 Disc - 206w
2016 Canyon Aeroad - 208w
2019 Specialized Venge Disc - 208w
2016 Giant Propel Advanced SL - 210w
2016 Scott Foil Premium - 211w
2016 BMC Time Machine - 211w
2016 Look 795 - 212w
2019 Trek Madone Disc - 212w
2019 Ridley Noah Fast Disc - 213w
I don’t know if we ever saw data for the new Madone rim - just heard that it was downgraded to avoid making the disc bike look so bad…
Aside from Cannondale - discs haven’t gone well for anyone. Especially Cervelo who went from a bike with standard bars to full integrated
But Cannondale shows it is possible. Or it could have been an aberrant test??
I think the new Aerohead is supposed to be faster than the old one, which would probably put it down around the SystemSix. Of course that bike has been plagued with issues that seem to be related to trying to get the weight down to something in the range of a rim brake bike.
My guess is that most of the recent gains are down to the more integrated cockpits. Old school bar and stem combo left a few watts on the table, so a real disc to rim brake frame aero comparison would make most disc bike look even worse
Aside from Cannondale - discs haven’t gone well for anyone. Especially Cervelo who went from a bike with standard bars to full integrated
But Cannondale shows it is possible.
Given the sensitivity of aero testing to the smallest things I wouldn’t put a ton of weight on one test where the range from top to bottom is “10W”. In quotes because W isn’t the greatest unit to even compare.
They convert to watts because the public has demanded it… !
Their testing seems pretty thorough and trustworthy.
Their testing seems pretty thorough and trustworthy.
I don’t disagree that it is. But there are so many little decisions to “normalize” the results that I just don’t see that list as some kind of hard ordinal ranking. Rider on/off, one bottle/two bottles/no bottle, etc. Those could all swing Watts in various directions between the bikes, I assume.
E.g. my understanding is that some of the new aero bikes are designed to be aero in “real world” conditions, e.g. rider on, two standard round bottles. Those may not test as well in a pure bare-bike wind tunnel test.
(maybe the magazine did standardize around two bottles, I don’t know…)
I have no doubt that it’s a good ballpark indication.
I’d love to go hydraulics on my SC as I reckon the brakes are diabolical. Partly those rubbish Bontrager levers feel like knives and are bloody slippery, but…
Has anyone put the hydros on an SC? Thinking the cable routing could be a bastard though.
Discs, thru axels, threaded BB, everything I was looking for.
I just got a new to me 2011 Trek Speed Concept - does anyone know if I can run GP5000 25mm tires on it? It is currently running GP4000 23mm. The front would definitely fit, but wasn’t sure about the back and if I would have to take off the bento box.
I just got a new to me 2011 Trek Speed Concept - does anyone know if I can run GP5000 25mm tires on it? It is currently running GP4000 23mm. The front would definitely fit, but wasn’t sure about the back and if I would have to take off the bento box.
It might be possible. The GP4000S tires tended to run large (i.e. a 23c tire measuring 24.5-25mm wide when mounted on a 17-19mm wide rim) and the GP5000 are a bit “truer to size”. Only way to know for sure would be to test fit.
Thanks for your feedback.
I’d love to go hydraulics on my SC as I reckon the brakes are diabolical. Partly those rubbish Bontrager levers feel like knives and are bloody slippery, but…
Has anyone put the hydros on an SC? Thinking the cable routing could be a bastard though.
I’ve always wondered if someone took their SC to someone like Calfee and had them redo the fork and seatstays to see if it was possible. Might be a cheaper alternative than a brand new bike. Just not sure it’s possible.
I’m thoroughly confused by this entire discussion re: hydraulic brakes on the current Speed Concept. Even if you could run hydraulic lines from the levers to the calipers, how exactly are you going to make the proprietary rim brakes work?
Replying in general…
I’ll go against the grain…I think it is a good update. As a former owner of two SC’s, I think the main improvements that were needed were:
- Disc brakes
- Get rid of the press fit BB (I’m assuming they did this?)
Anything else I think is icing on the cake. Of course the bike has to fit like any other bike would have to. But if the geo meets your fit needs, then good to go. And of course I’m also assuming they’ve put mounts on the back of the seat tube for an aero box like previous gen
We’ve already discussed to death how all these top end frames are so close in terms of aero that there is little to gain.
Got to agree with these 2 points.
For all the disc brake nay-sayers, rim brakes are fine and dandy when you live in a desert and have a total of 4 corners over a shit-boring motorway 112 mile bike course. Away from the arid flat piss-boring parts of America, and particularly in the wet parts of the world, discs are a real blessing. What ever is lost on aero (I don’t doubt discs add drag vs rim brakes usually) can be gained back in being able to brake later and with more confidence into each of the (guestimated) 60-80 corners needing braking for on my local full distance route (assuming the rider can handle a bike of course - no means certain in Tri).
So maybe Trek finally recognised a world outside of middle-America ?
Also it means I’ll be able to swap wheels across bikes if need be, as the road bike is already disc.
Bullshit. I live in a hot, humid, wet state with big ass hills. We have been riding rim brakes…oh yea…forever. Helpful maybe, blessing doubtful. What disc brakes really do is allow different design for the rims themselves, hooked, hookless, etc. Besides if your braking a lot you’re doing it wrong.
I have a 2019 Speed Concept that I am running 28mm Conti GP5000 on. They fit and the only rubbing I get is when the back tire rubs on the speed fin if I am out of the saddle pressing hard on the pedals, and that is only because my speed fin is not very centered. When you look at it you can tell the drive side bottom edge is a lot closer to the tire than the non drive side. If that part was better molded it would not rub at all.
I wouldn’t run rim brake. I’m talking about redoing the carbon (braking and resetting or rebuilding). Just an out of the box thought.