New long rider needing hydration advice?

Triathlon Forum
1

I know this has been cussed and discussed a lot before (and that I’m asking a lot of questions this month that have been asked before), but I’m looking for info on long ride hydration…

What is the magic number of bottles you want for a long ride? Century or 112mi IM bike leg?

I don’t have much of a hydration strategy in general since my rides are short, and it’s easy to carry more than enough liquid, but as I’m mapping out how to extend my rides, I’m needing to get smart about my hydration, and learn the differences between training and racing strategy.

What I know about myself: 1) I’d rather carry too much hydration than not enough. 2) I don’t ever ‘over drink’, but I do use hydration as a mental crutch. 3) I don’t like having stuff on my person or in pockets, both racing or training. 4) I like storage on the bike. Having extra spots to store stuff, solid nutrition, cell phone, ipod, etc would be nice.

I have heard anything from 250ml/hr to “one bottle water and one bottle sports drink per hour” (so 1200ish mL/hr) as recommendations. 600-800ml/hr seems to be more common/reasonable, but I don’t have much frame of reference there. 250ml/hr over a 6hr training ride would mean carrying 3 bottles, so no sweat, but it seems VERY low. 600-800 would be 6-8 bottles, and I know I don’t have spots to carry 8 bottles!

Bike specific considerations I’m looking at - Specialized Shiv:

I have a Fuelselage, but I’ll only use it for races and a few training rides to get used to it. I hate washing camelback bladders, hate washing the fuelselage bladder too.

Shiv has one frame mount position. I don’t have a Fuel Cell box, might buy one, but I have a Keg now for tools. Either way, the Keg or the Fuel Cell eats up one bottle position, and I have the keg on the frame for now anyway, so that’s occupied either way.

The Fuelselage kinda eliminates the opportunity for top tube bags/boxes right behind the head tube, so having the Fuel Cell soft top storage might be nice for nutrition. Otherwise it’s all electrical tape or pockets.

Plan right now:

Profile Design Aqua drink between the bars, Fuelselage bladder in the downtube, Xlab Turbo wing under the tail with two bottles. Fuel Cell or Keg on the frame for tools/tubes. Nutrition is either taped to the top tube, or in the soft top of the Fuel Cell. That’s 4 bottles during races, 3 during training (not using the Fuelselage bladder for training). Even if I don’t need 4 liquid bottles, I might be tempted to put the Keg on the tail for tools, then have the fuel cell available for solid nutrition, cell phone, etc.

During training, I have one and two bottle belts and 1.5L, and 2L camelback to choose from for extra hydration on my person.

Not really wanting to spend that much on the Xlab plus 2 cages, but don’t know a better seat mounted option for 2 cages. I could save myself some cash and get a single bottle tail (Specialized Reserve Rack for $45 w/ cage, vs the Xlab Turbo Wing for $70, + 2 cages for $40), but worried I’d need more during a race, and especially need more during training rides. With a single tail,I don’t use the Fuelselage bladder for training, I’d only have 2 bottles, one in the bars and one under tail.

2

A lot of the answers are dependant on individual variables, but I’ll try to run through my thought process when planning for races (for training I tend to intentionally under hydrate / fuel a bit on long sessions to simulate race fatigue, it’s worked well thus far).

  1. Look at the conditions of the race you’re competing in. Hot / Hilly / Humid are all going to dehydrate you faster than flat and cool, windy is also something to watch for, since your perception of dehydration can really screw with you on those courses.

  2. Can you tolerate gel / thick nutrition on the bike, and have you found a product that works particularly well for you? This tends to be a limiting factor for athletes with sensitive GI, and I remember Phil Graves making the statement that you basically have to train for the specific intake before racing (I agree with him completely).

  3. What other nutrition strategies are you pursuing, for example solids / Chomps, jellies, sports bars, etc?

My basic set up goes like this:

  1. BTA setup, either to swap bottles (if the race bottles fit in cages) or for my primary nutrition bottle. Start with 1 bottle of double electrolytes (NUUN Cola) for the period between swim and first aid station.
  2. Primary Nutrition bottle on the downtube (I know there is a slight aero penalty, but I’m comfortable with that position of placement and I remember to drink, which are both greater factors than 20-40grams of drag). I can survive on syrup over a 6 hour ride, so I’ll take something like Roctane and mix up enough to cover ~90g of carbs/hour of racing [this seems to be my magic number, less than that and I suffer on the run, more I bloat). I premix the nutrition, mark off 15 minute increments on the bottle and go for it. This works with a large bottle and Iron distance racing, but is a bit dull on the taste buds.
  3. Special needs bottle with duplicate nutrition, in case of a dropped bottle.

Then I consider, if the race is short on aid stations or abnormally dehydrating? If so, I’ll add a behind the seat bottle cage for an additional bottle grab at aidstations.

This works for me, but depending on your ability to stomach the super gel bottle, you might want to split the nutrition (and remember, it’s carbohydrates you can absorb, not total calories that is likely the biggest factor on the race. If you are bonking / having GI issues steer away from products with 2:1 or 4:1 carbs/protein and look for something that is almost pure carbs). Also, if you find cramping to be an issue, you may want to supplement with other electrolyte sources.

Since you’ve got the Shiv, you’ve got an easy option for 3 hydration locations without having to go with anything on the seat back (some people have flexibility issues with those bottles / ejection problems) for a straight forward set up.

Also, note: if the race is really freaking windy (e.g. Kona) having your hydration set up with a straw so you never have to worry about being unable to take your hands off the bars to feed can be critical (I’m thinking specifically of the winds on Hawi for this, with many individuals running a slightly less aero BTA / straw combo, just so they don’t risk nutrition).

3

Your plan sounds reasonable, but I have a few suggestions. First, figure out how much you drink per hour, instead of relying on a bunch of different suggestions. (Use the fuselage for this, so that you are able to drink whenever you want). Second, ditch the Profile Design bottle, and get yourself a BTA setup, you can do this easily with a basic bottle cage and some zip ties, or you can use something like the Profile Design HC bottle or Speedfill A2. For the saddle bottle, you can probably be served well by again, zip tying a cage back there or using a commercially available mount. I don’t know about centuries, but in Ironman racing, there are regular bottle hand ups, where you can get water and the sports drink that they are serving on course. Ideally, you could use both, but if not, you can at least pick up water, and refuel with Gu’s, bars, or your own sports drink. Take a look at how Rappstar sets his Shiv up for races, a BTA bottle and the fuselage for hydration, and a small flat kit tucked up under the saddle.

4

Thanks for the advice so far, very detailed!

At the risk of sounding ignorant, why is a bottle and cage horizontal BTA better than a PD Aerodrink mounted between the aerobars? (And absolutely sounding ignorant, why is that not considered BTA?) The Speedfil A2 bottle is $50 some odd, plus a cage. The PD is $17. Is there something wrong with the Profile Design? Is it that much less aero dynamic than a horizontal bottle BTA?

5

part of drag comes from frontal area which is the cross-sectional area of the object in question. Vertical bottles typically have a greater frontal area than horizontal bottles of the same volume. Additionally, horizontal bottles are partially “hidden” from the wind by your arms in the aero bars.

6

This should give you a better understanding of the savings with a BTA bottle.

7

1st and most important, read “Waterlogged” by Tim Noakes. This is the most unbiased book breaking down the physiology of hydration in existence. The quick Cliff notes on the subject- What you consume should be 100% based on what you can absorb, and nothing more. Dozens of proper, unbiased studies on this subject going back decades have shown the human absorption rate of fluid to be in a fairly narrow range- roughly 500 ml per hours for females and 600 ish for males. It is not relevant how much you are sweating or peeing out- if you intake more than you can absorb, it will build up in your stomach and intestine, and over time lead to the possibility of hyponytremia. Fortunately for us humans, one of the most advanced regulatory systems we are stocked with is for water and sodium balance. So a simple rule of thumb is to drink to thirst as even slight dehydration triggers a very strong thirst response. It is also important to note that the effects from dehydration during training or a race is typically reduced performance, the effects of over hydration (hyponytremia) can be death (there have been numerous deaths from this in endurance events in the past 20 years). So, carry all the water you want (extra weight will only help your training!), but only drink what you need, trust your highly developed on board computer as to how much to drink (thirst), and enjoy your ride :slight_smile:

8

1st and most important, read “Waterlogged” by Tim Noakes. This is the most unbiased book breaking down the physiology of hydration in existence. The quick Cliff notes on the subject- What you consume should be 100% based on what you can absorb, and nothing more. Dozens of proper, unbiased studies on this subject going back decades have shown the human absorption rate of fluid to be in a fairly narrow range- roughly 500 ml per hours for females and 600 ish for males. It is not relevant how much you are sweating or peeing out- if you intake more than you can absorb, it will build up in your stomach and intestine, and over time lead to the possibility of hyponytremia. Fortunately for us humans, one of the most advanced regulatory systems we are stocked with is for water and sodium balance. So a simple rule of thumb is to drink to thirst as even slight dehydration triggers a very strong thirst response. It is also important to note that the effects from dehydration during training or a race is typically reduced performance, the effects of over hydration (hyponytremia) can be death (there have been numerous deaths from this in endurance events in the past 20 years). So, carry all the water you want (extra weight will only help your training!), but only drink what you need, trust your highly developed on board computer as to how much to drink (thirst), and enjoy your ride :slight_smile:

For some reason I’ve missed this one. I haven’t heard the 600ml (20oz) being an actual absorption limit. So I suppose that explains the consistent consumption rate of pro triathletes of 1 20oz bottle per hour. So that means there’s not much point in consuming more than that. I guess once you get over a couple myths abotu hydration it makes it easier. One is the link of hydration to muscle cramps. Another is the thought that more bright yellowish and less clear urine is a sign of dehydration. Rather i think its’ a sign of metabolic activity causing more byproducts to be removed form the blood stream, and it’s only concentrated because there’s less reserve water available.

So the general rule of 1 bottle per hour applies so 1 bottle for Olympic, 2-1/2 - 3 bottles for HIM, and 5-6 bottles for IM. You might take 1 extra hand ups in long course to dump over you in hot weather.

9

Spot on. You will find that most people who drink to thirst take in 500-600 ml per hour. Great observation on urine color, most people should know that what you eat can greatly effect this, just eat a good amount of beets and see what happens! The other important myth to debunk on this subject is that if you don’t need to pee, you are not drinking enough. Our bodies protection system are amazing, and have evolved based on survival in our “natural” environment. Apparently aid stations are not natural :slight_smile: The human body has a mechanism that will shut down the urge to pee under stress/exertion. This is believed to be a reaction to allow you to preserve fluids. This specific reaction combined with the ease of over drinking (due to aid stations) is the primary cause of hypernytremia in endurance events. Scenario plays out like this- victim is bombarded with warning not to dehydrate and to drink as much as possible, and the advise that if you don’t need to pee you are not drinking enough. Even at a 12-15 min/mile pace, with the common marathon aid station placement of 1 per mile, that is for to 5 aid stations per HOUR. So our unsuspecting victim is working hard to manage those 12-15 minute miles, and relieved when they make those friendly aid stations. With continued encouragement they consume 8 oz of sport drink and 8 oz of water at each aid station- man that feels good! But wait, I don’t need to pee, I guess I need more. For those quick with math, you can see what is coming- intake of 16 ish oz of fluids every 12- 15 ninutes = 64- 80 ounces per hour! With an absorbtion rate of 20 oz max per hour, our poor victim is accumulating excess water at a rate of 40- 60 oz per hour. It will not take long for this to become a problem, and unfortunately in the case of several dozen real victims in the past 20 years, can lead to death. Anyone considering doing endurance events of 2 + hours should take the time to get, and read “Waterlogged” by Tim Noakes. I cannot even begin to explain how much that book has helped me in my Ironman events and training.

10

I would estimate that I run about in that 600mL/hr or 1bottle per hour ballpark, except for blisteringly hot days, in which case, I usually end up drinking insane amounts to make up for loss, as well as maintain body temp. In that case, however, I take in salts/electrolytes to prevent hyponatremia.

But I’m not an expert, and I spent over 15yrs of my life training to dehydrate for wrestling, so even though I’m sated with ~600mL/hr, I was prone to believe that my established trend was probably erroneous.

As far as nutrition plan goes: I do pretty well so far on strawberry/Banana Gu, I’ve trained with it a lot in the last year during 2hr+ runs, so I’m pretty confident in it. I try to hit these as scheduled 1per hour. Clif Lime Shot Blocks do ok for my gut also, but they seem to gum in my mouth pretty bad, so I don’t usually use them while running. I also use diluted Gatorade (flame away, it’s cheap and easy to find) to make up lost electrolytes and salts. I don’t have a ‘solids plan’ worked out yet, but I’m going to start playing with mixing in a few protein bars to see how my stomach reacts. I’ve used peanut butter and jelly sandwiches a few times during long runs, didn’t seem like they hurt my gut at all, but I’m not sure it did much to help either, other than take my mind off it for a bit. And those were 2-3hr runs, not an IM. I haven’t done any solids on my ‘long’ rides so far, 30-40mi, nothing big enough for me to think about nutrition for it.

So then if I start out with 1 bottle per hour as a starting point, I’m back to my question of “where do I put them on a Shiv?”

Based on the advice so far it looks like 3 bottles on the bike is all that guys are carrying?

For racing: Quick fill bottle BTA (either a speedfil A2 or Profile Design Aero HC), Fuelselage tube also in the cockpit. I’ll load one of these with sports drink, the other with plain water, so I can choose either at any time without leaving aero. Another bottle of water under my tail, and put another sports drink bottle at Special Needs to refill, and refill on water with hand ups as I go.

For Training (not going to use the Fuelselage): BTA bottle, 1 under tail, camelback 1.5L (2 bottles) or 2L (3 bottles) would get me 4-5hrs. Occasional 6hr+ rides would either be a belt, a bigger camelback (3L = 5bottles), or break down and use the Fuelselage.

At what point does someone decide 2 under tail is a benefit?

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**It is also important to note that the effects from dehydration during training or a race is typically reduced performance, the effects of over hydration (hyponytremia) can be death (there have been numerous deaths from this in endurance events in the past 20 years). **So, carry all the water you want (extra weight will only help your training!), but only drink what you need, trust your highly developed on board computer as to how much to drink (thirst), and enjoy your ride :slight_smile:

I’m not arguing the point against over hydration…however I think you treated dehydration a bit lightly. The first effect of dehydration is reduced performance…but it can go down hill fast from there. And death is certainly possibility from dehydration as well. Yes, your body gets “Thirsty” but for individuals with high sweat rates (and in hot/humid conditions) coupled with the limits in absorption rates and gastric emptying, often by the time you are thirsty it is too late to maintain or to retain hydration levels during competition. It is very common for sweat rates to exceed intestinal absorption rates. Waiting until you are thirsty is not always the best advice.

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“And death is certainly possibility from dehydration…”
Really?? As of this point in time, I do not believe there has ever been a reported case of death from dehydration from any race or training. While it is possible to die from dehydration, it is not easy (there have been cases of people surviving in excess of 5 days without any water in harsh desert environments). Do not believe the marketing hype of the billion dollar sport drink machine, it is not fact based. If you look at FACTS you will find over 30 deaths in races in the last 20 years from OVER hydration. These types of deaths were almost unheard of before the hype to push excess drinking. Even the performance issues are overstated. Read Noake’s book- no hype, just fact. For example, did you know that the WINNERS of endurance events, such as Ironman, Western States, etc typically loose 10-12% of body weight- without any significant performance drop? This is a FACT.
The reason I am being so hard on this, is it pisses me off when people die from bad advise and mis-information. Read the book, get facts, then post

13

“And death is certainly possibility from dehydration…”
Really?? As of this point in time, I do not believe there has ever been a reported case of death from dehydration from any race or training. While it is possible to die from dehydration, it is not easy (there have been cases of people surviving in excess of 5 days without any water in harsh desert environments). Do not believe the marketing hype of the billion dollar sport drink machine, it is not fact based. If you look at FACTS you will find over 30 deaths in races in the last 20 years from OVER hydration. These types of deaths were almost unheard of before the hype to push excess drinking. Even the performance issues are overstated. Read Noake’s book- no hype, just fact. For example, did you know that the WINNERS of endurance events, such as Ironman, Western States, etc typically loose 10-12% of body weight- without any significant performance drop? This is a FACT.
The reason I am being so hard on this, is it pisses me off when people die from bad advise and mis-information. Read the book, get facts, then post

EVER? Heat illness is often a direct result of dehydration, and I’m sure more than one person has fallen out and died in an endurance event due to heat illness since the beginning of time.

I don’t disagree with your assertion that overdrinking can be a problem, but claiming dehydration can’t be dangerous is silly.

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Bottle placement issues aside, for longer rides I generally carry two bottles (however situated on my TT bike or my road bike) and refil them as needed at gas stations or churches or parks or wherever when they’re empty.

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Our ability to control our body temperature is related to our bodies ability to maintain proper hydration levels.

Change in heat = Metabolism +/- Conduction +/- Concevection +/- Radiation - Evaporation

Evaporation is the bodies number one way of dissipating heat. During physical activity, metabolism obviously goes up, therefor we rely on evaporation (sweating) to cool us down. After prolonged sweating, we become dehydrated. When we become dehydrated, our sweat rate drops and core temp goes up…leading to heat illnesses. If you change your search term to deaths due to heat stroke in physical activity, you would come up with a much different answer. A sign of hyperthermia is hot and dry skin. The skin is dry because your sweat rate is reduced. When you are not sweating enough, and you cannot lose heat through conduction, convection, or radiation you are in trouble.

Why does the NCAA and HS associations spend so much time limiting pre-season football practices? Why are rubber and sauna suits banned for NCAA wresting? They are worried about athletes getting dehydrated. Probably from a liability stand point, but still.

Again, I am not arguing that hypernatrimia is not a big deal, just that dehydration should not be ignored. And FYI, I have no affiliation with any of the “billion dollar sport drink machines” you referenced.

It pisses me off when people die from bad advice as well. There are many more sources of information than one book…

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“And death is certainly possibility from dehydration…”
Really?? As of this point in time, I do not believe there has ever been a reported case of death from dehydration from any race or training. While it is possible to die from dehydration, it is not easy (there have been cases of people surviving in excess of 5 days without any water in harsh desert environments). Do not believe the marketing hype of the billion dollar sport drink machine, it is not fact based. If you look at FACTS you will find over 30 deaths in races in the last 20 years from OVER hydration. These types of deaths were almost unheard of before the hype to push excess drinking. Even the performance issues are overstated. Read Noake’s book- no hype, just fact. For example, did you know that the WINNERS of endurance events, such as Ironman, Western States, etc typically loose 10-12% of body weight- without any significant performance drop? This is a FACT.
The reason I am being so hard on this, is it pisses me off when people die from bad advise and mis-information. Read the book, get facts, then post

EVER? Heat illness is often a direct result of dehydration, and I’m sure more than one person has fallen out and died in an endurance event due to heat illness since the beginning of time.

I don’t disagree with your assertion that overdrinking can be a problem, but claiming dehydration can’t be dangerous is silly.

Agreed…

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A bike jersey has 3 pockets in it, bottles fit great.

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To tone this down a bit- I never said there was NO danger to dehydration, I DID say and stand by that it is far less dangerous in endurance sport than overhydration. I also will stand by my statement that there are no known reported deaths from dehydration, or heat stroke, in Ironman, Marathon, or Ultra races. This information is from numerous sources, not just one book. I will concede that it is not 100% up to date, as this information is not always published in a timely fashion. In regard to Noake’s book, those who have not read it should know that it has hundreds of published studies on this topic included. So while it is just one book, it is a very comprehensive resource on this specific topic.
To summarize- it is not a good practice to dehydrate, and when possible should be avoided, and I have never said anything contrary to that. It is also not a good idea to overhydrate, and there is massive data to show that this is a much bigger problem in endurance sport. It is probably safe to assume that most of those reading these posts have done either a 70.3 or Ironman event. Have you ever noticed when they put on the wrist bands they try to leave them pretty loose. The volunteers have been instructed to do so to allow for swelling, which is very common. If someone is dehydrated, they do not swell, they contract. Swelling in extremities like the wrist is most commonly caused by excess fluid (water), so it is very common for 70.3 and IM finishers to be at least somewhat overhydrated. (BTW- I am not aware of there ever being a death in a triathlon due to hyponytremia (over hydration), most of the reported deaths have been in marathons)
Thank you for noting the importance of not disregarding dehydration. While I did not feel I was conveying this, clearly some were interpreting it this way. That is the great part of the response mechanism in these forums :wink:

19

Figure out your sweat rate in race conditions. This rate will be very different on the trainer, or hill, or flats so try to simulate what it will be like during the bike for your main race of the year. Weigh yourself before and after the ride and keep track of how much you drink. Do this a few times and take the average. Some weight loss will be fine during the race but you want to make sure you aren’t dropping too much.

I sweat a lot - roughly 1.4L per hour on an average to hilly course. So I have to try to fit in 1.2L/hour in long races so I’m not losing too much. Similar to sweat rate, your absorption rate will be specific to you as well. And that can be ‘trained’ to get your stomach used to processing more liquid if necessary. I can drink 1.2L/hour without any discomfort or feeling overly full.

Test it out! Don’t wait for race day.

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How many hours have you been able to consume 1.2 l/hr for?