so that we can keep the poll thread pure and clean. gimme your best shot.
I noticed that by the end of the thread you were defending drug testing for the top-3 in each age-group, contrary to your early position about voluntary testing.
Darn, I missed that entire thread.
But, ahh, yeah- they should have drug testing.
I think he means voluntary for the rest and mandatory for the top 3 OA. He also said on the other thread that USAT already includes money to cover the cost of testing at races.
Yeah, I would do that. But I think it would initially add a huge layer of beaurocracy and complexity to a sport already challenged with just measured a damn 1/2 mile in the water and keeping competitors from running/biking willy nilly all over the countryside.
Shit, half the races around here would probably put the test samples on the aid station tables with the Gatorade at mile 5.
And no one would notice.
There would be a handful who noticed- the dudes who start complaining about how no one told them what the new energy drink was, and they didn’t have a chance to do a couple long runs/rides doing it.
Yeah…you could just tell 'em that it’s a new isotonic sport drink that’s high in the crucial electrolytes (especially sodium) that an endurance racer needs. And then you could charge 'em 10 bucks a bottle at the race expo 
“contrary to your early position about voluntary testing.”
those aren’t mutual exclusives.
i would favor mandatory testing of top placers in major events, and perhaps even out of competition testing for top qualifiers of world championships.
however, if it seemed the membership, or the federation’s governors, were more amenable to voluntary testing, i’d be okay with that.
it would be wrong to think voluntary testing would have no teeth or effect. let us say we announced, pre race, that we were voluntarily testing, but not which places and age groups. post race, we’d test first and third place in every age group from 30-59 in kona, or at USAT nat’ls.
we’d publish the results of all those who’d agree to be tested. it would be likely that some in the triathlon community would identify who refused to be tested, and it would probably become public pretty quickly. i don’t think that would be an easy stigma to live with.
here’s the thing. age group testing would require an entirely different approach than would pro testing. it’s going to require a lot of discussion. whatever is done should be something the majority of the triathlon community is comfortable with. yes, technically an age group competitor could be tested now under the rules. but for AG drug testing to be routine addition to our sport we ought to have a sportwide discussion about it.
"Shit, half the races around here would probably put the test samples on the aid station tables with the Gatorade at mile 5. "
Accelerade… ptoooie!!
Gatorade was artificial sweat, Accelerade is just dehydrated urine.
“we’d publish the results of all those who’d agree to be tested. it would be likely that some in the triathlon community would identify who refused to be tested, and it would probably become public pretty quickly. i don’t think that would be an easy stigma to live with.”
I’m not a lawyer, and maybe you’ve already gone over this with them, but I’d bet that if you published the names of those who agreed to be tested, those who didn’t could claim you were trying to coerce them into being tested, for exactly the reason you said. It would put peer pressure on those who didn’t volunteer, and that could be seen as attempting to coerce them into giving medical info that it is their right to keep private.
Where on earth are you getting the idea that drug testing is not expensive? Yea if you want to pee in a cup and test for Cocaine, meth, cannibus and alcohol you probably could get by for $25 a head. But testing for “the good shit” Balco kine stuff, epo, growth hormones usually takes blood work, chain of custody, lab certification, bonding, and proper trained medical staff.
Even though it is “voluntary” are you covered personally for liability when you print that sweet Judy the 25-29 year old attorney is a “doper” in the Trifed National News? Or what happens when Jimbob gets an infection from the needle stick after the ditch swim? Can you prove it wasn’t your staff that did that to him?
Have you ever been tested? Just for a pee test you have to have a chain of custody person watch you go. Which can be a pretty long time for a dehydrated triathlete. Then the urine has to be ph tested and fit within paramaters or the test isn’t valid. If it is too basic the subject has to wait and provide a sample that is within range.
I am with everyone else that yea it is a great theory, but the huge can of worms it may open could kill the sport. Talk to some of the pros who have been tested, it can end up a real pain in the butt. And for what goal? To keep our little sport clean? If it is dirty we would never know about it, even if we did run simple tests, because the good stuff is really hard to find. G
I can’t imagine anyone in their right mind volunteering to be drug tested. Why would anyone risk the stigma and legal costs of trying to defend against a false positive or a contaminated sample? It would be like volunteering for an audit by the IRS.
Haim
I never read the other thread, but i’ve never been one to stir shit up, so i’ll toss some random thoughts in here.
I have no clue who is responsible for drug testing at usacycling races, particularly at nationals, but i’d say the category, junior, U23, and masters cyclists are tested about as often as what you could ever wish to see in age group triathlon, if not more. This does not stop many very good cyclist from using ped’s for the sole sake of improved preformance almost year round. Steriod inhalers are quit popular among the masters roadie crowd, as is ephedra and other stimulants. if you set up a hidden camera in the portapotties at competitve state crit, you’d be deppressed by the shit (no pun intended) that you saw.
Thinking about it, pro cyclist are among the most tested athletes that i can think of, and it’s well known in southern roadie circles that some of the best and most tested cyclists in america have taken stocking trips over to mexico (note to dopers; be careful who you date, and what you let your bigmouth gf know about your personal life). Seeing as how some of these names are still on the starting list for the san fran race, and one is a favorite to win, they have yet as far as i’m aware, to fail a drug test.
To those who doubt how rampant drug use is in american cycling, and how high up the usage goes, think about how much your preformances vary. Also think about how hard it is for you, or even the best rider you know, to just ride away from your weekend group ride. Now think about the what you see the in the ranks of american pro cycling.
If these guy’s get away with taking some pretty hardcore stuff at the pro level, and these master’s riders have no problem passing drug test during competition, then i can’t imagine triathlon being any different.
I’d be interested in some numbers. Like, about how much more in entry fees would it cost me to catch about how many dopers? The first question would be easy for someone associated with USADA/USATF etc to answer. Decide how many tests you’re going to do at each race, multiply by the cost per test, then divide into the total entrants. Maybe someone here can hazard an informed guess as to the retail cost of a “basic” doping screen.
The second one, regarding the number of dopers, is a little more tricky. Basically, you have to guess how many people out there are juicing in a way that will show up on your screen. If that number is 1/1000, as has been suggested here, drug testing might be a waste of time and money. If it’s 1/100, and those that dope are winning races (where you would cluster the tests), maybe it makes more sense.
I think it’s worth noting that the increase in positive doping tests in cycling recently has been attributed in part to “focussed” testing, where riders with a history of suspicious lab values (e.g. hematocrit) are tested more often. It would be difficult to imagine the same sort of attention being paid to AG triathletes
I suppose the alternative argument is that the deterrent value would make it worthwhile even you caught nobody, but I’d still be interested in knowing what that deterrent would cost me. Anyone know?
Ken
Yes, excellent points. Testing of age-groupers would have to be very limited to be affordable. The legal consequences of a mishandled test would be a nightmare.
Uh, regarding the good ***t, it is very available. Drive over the border, and with the right contacts you can get almost anything you want. Fly to Eastern Europe and you can score just about anything except the latest designer drugs. Asia? Who do you know?
I hang out with bodybuilders and weight lifters. They will do anything to get huge. I could be 260 lbs in 2-3 years if I wanted to be. Hell, I was 242 in my 30’s without anything. One of my boys is 6-4, 280 and he’s been tempted to take steroids because a couple of his buddies do shows, so of course they are doing the ***t. If he hits 300 lbs I’m gonna clock him.
Anyway, the drugs are very easy to get. Way too easy IMHO, and that’s why drug testing should be done. Our sport doesn’t need the infection bodybuilders have. Dan’s given this a lot of thought and I’m sure with further refinement USAT can set the example for others.
Let’s hope that just discussing this issue has some people re-thinking their drug usage.
-Robert
Ben:
Those steroid inhalers will open your lungs up if you have asthma, but if you aren’t suffering from asthma or COPD, they aren’t going to do any good. The steroid DOES NOT go to the blood stream. I’ve been taking that stuff for 3 months now and I can still barely bench 175 ten times. I’m getting weaker, not stronger.
Tell them to forget those puppies. The old idea that the folks with asthma who are on inhalers are getting a big boost is nonsense. I used to believe it. Trust me, if you have asthma, even with an inhaler there are days when a little 3 mile run will stop you.
-Robert
“how much more in entry fees would it cost me to catch about how many dopers?”
regardless of how many you caught, it wouldn’t cost you a dime. i would anticipate that between $1 and $2 of your annual membership would go toward AG drug testing.
“here on earth are you getting the idea that drug testing is not expensive?”
i’m sorry, did i say it was not expensive? i’ve been present for quite a large number of drug tests. i’m aware of the protocol, the labs, the cost, the COC issues, and the costs associated with defending a prosecution if you’re sued.
it’s all the same stuff we do for pro athletes. only difference is, we’d be doing this for those who’re almost pros, or ex pros. we’d have a much smaller screen, which drops the cost per test quite a lot. no positives for stimulants, or inhaled corticosteroids, and we’d install threshold levels for anabolics, so that cross contamination inside a manufacturing facility would not cause a positive.
you’re right, it’s all a hassle. it’s a much smaller hassle than having marshalls patrol the course. and a small fraction of the cost.
remember, i’m talking about 2 or 3 races a year, out of the 1400 races around the country, and only the top finishers.
Last week I sold a Felt road bike to a customer who openly discussed his use of banned, performance enhancing steroids. He told us where got them, how much he spent, the penalties for illegally reselling them, etc.
He has been using illegal (banned) perfromance enhancing drugs for three years. He was utterly candid about it. Proud in fact.
In 23 years in the bike industry and 21 years in triathlons I have never encountered that before.
it’s all the same stuff we do for pro athletes. only difference is, we’d be doing this for those who’re almost pros, or ex pros. we’d have a much smaller screen, which drops the cost per test quite a lot. no positives for stimulants, or inhaled corticosteroids, and we’d install threshold levels for anabolics, so that cross contamination inside a manufacturing facility would not cause a positive.
Hi Dan,
Please explain how it might be possible to selectively enforce the antidoping rules or make modifications to the procedures. It seems as if USAT has signed away some organizational rights to determine it’s own rules.
Article VIII.
Doping Control Rules
8.1 Policy.
USA Triathlon condemns the use of substances or methods on the International Triathlon Union (ITU) list of classes of prohibited substances and methods. Additionally, USA Triathlon condemns the use of substances or methods aimed at artificially enhancing athletic performance. The use of prohibited substances or methods or the use of substances or methods aimed at artificially enhancing performance, frequently referred to as “doping,” contravene the ethics of both sport and medical science, threaten the integrity and dignity of Olympic sport, erode public confidence in the Olympic Movement and jeopardize the well being of athletes. Additionally, the use of substances on the ITU prohibited substance list or the practice of artificially enhancing performance is inimical to the concept of sportsmanship and frustrates the desire to conduct fair athletic competitions. As a member National Governing Body of the United States Olympic Committee (“USOC”) and as a member Federation of the International Triathlon Union (“ITU”), USA Triathlon adheres to the anti-doping rules of the USOC and the ITU. In addition, USAT complies with USOC Bylaws Chapter XXIII, Section 2(G), which provides that, as a condition of membership in the USOC, each National Governing Body complies with the procedures pertaining to drug testing and adjudication of related doping offenses of the independent anti-doping organization designated by the USOC to conduct drug testing. The USOC has designated the United States Anti-Doping Agency (“USADA”) as that organization.
8.2 Incorporation of Rules.
It is the responsibility of each member of USA Triathlon to comply with the applicable anti-doping rules, regulations and policies of the ITU, the USOC, the IOC and the USADA, that are hereby incorporated in full by USA Triathlon. It is also the responsibility of each member of USA Triathlon to submit, without reservation or condition, to in-competition and out-of-competition doping controls conducted by either the ITU or the USADA. Out-of-competition (short notice) testing of athletes may take place at USA Triathlon elite-level camps, training sessions at USOC facilities or at other designated sites. Out of competition testing (no advance notice) testing of athletes may take place at any time for those athletes designated by USA Triathlon for inclusion in USA Triathlon’s Out-of-Competition testing pool. Additional information regarding the anti-doping rules of the ITU, the USOC and the USADA, may be found at www.triathlon.org and www.usantidoping.org. Athletes may also contact the USADA Drug Reference Line at (800) 233-0393 for information on medications and other substances.
8.3 Adoption of USADA Protocol.
Pursuant to USOC Bylaws Chapter XXIII, Section 2(G), the conducting of doping controls of members and the management of positive, elevated test results and/or other doping violations for USA Triathlon members (post October 2, 2000) is the responsibility of the USADA. Any inconsistent provisions with USADA°s full responsibility of anti-doping matters including the testing, adjudication/results management or sanctioning of doping violations, elsewhere in USA Triathlon°s Competitive Rules are hereby superceded. USA Triathlon will, without further process, enforce and publish any sanction communicated to USA Triathlon by the USADA resulting from adjudication of a doping violation under the USADA Protocol.