Even without puberty a male heart is bigger than a female heart - advantage 1. Male lungs are bigger and better than female lungs - advantage 2. Males tend to be bigger and stronger than females even without puberty - advantage 3.
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I’d push back on one thing. This is not a “small population” issue any longer in our society. We are moving more and more towards acceptance of this and is only going to rise in numbers (just look at how many people were transgender 100 years ago, 30 years ago, now etc). So no sir this is not going to be a small issue. It’s only going to get worse regardless of the direction you decide on. Because again the inclusion side can then be viewed they don’t care about bio women. Fair play side can be viewed as not caring about inclusion for TG people. So someone always wins and someone always loses.
We are moving to the point in society where people want their gender or identity to not even be gender based. So again “inclusion” is always sorta going to be a never ending battle *someone is always going to be on the wrong side.
It sounds more to me like your suggestion is to have no classifications, just let it be fun, you get a score and off to the bar we all go to celebrate. So it would seem your thoughts would support a no category system. You just race and your time is what it is. That solves the issue you are bringing up more imo. Real inclusion means there are no divisions, everyone is equal. Now we obviously don’t think that within sports any longer thus the whole 2 category system now.
Running seems to be closer to this. Most people race half and marathons not for the placement but for the time. Everyone’s 1st post on any race is their time. Finishing in 12843rd place isn’t even a thing or a worry. It’s just go race, try to beat your goal time, overall/category placement in long distance running doesn’t seem that much of an issue like it is in triathlon. More people care about the place than the time in tri.
You’re just laying reasons why the scenario is unlikely, which I agree with.
Why is this brought up all the time? It. Doesn’t. Matter. So we’re supposed to disregard the experiences of the many females that see it as an invasion of their spaces and places to protect the feelings of a few?
It is. Nobody, literally no one, has told MtF they cannot compete. They are just being told to compete in your biological birth sex class. Sports have rules.
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Chess? If there is any make advantage in chess it is certainly less than in athletics. Yet FIDE has banned transgender women from playing in tournaments. I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion.
Fundamentally tho the issue seems like men are more competitive than women, so by extension they will be more drawn to competing and be more represented at the top of the standings regardless of the event, further reinforcing the competition as a mens event.
But yes, if there was a competition where the world records and payouts and level were all the same then it would be no issue competing as a man or a woman.
This kind of stuff gets repeated as though it’s just a thing. It’s probably the worst thing you can do for a human being. It’s hard to imagine a worse treatment. 5 years of chemotherapy where you’re practically just trying to almost not kill the body with radiation would be"healthier" than preventing the natural sex hormones in a body from doing their natural things to accommodate a psychological desire.
From a health and wellness perspective as a society (speaking broadly) we’d be better off normalizing girls and boys just competing together and girls nearly always losing than sentencing a growing number of thousands of people to the destruction these “treatments” cause.
It’s almost scary what this vein of thought can cause – “if you don’t transition him to a her now before puberty she’ll never play sports, so better get started early.”
Holy hell that’s scary externality.
Better to just close that door period and say, it’s not happening under any circumstances.
This is what I think is the final solution. Its got to be over 90% of people with some interest in high level sport probably agree that there should be no crossover from MtF. I think this has been the thing that has polarized so many in our country, when their actual 99% lives are then tied to this one tiny thing. Just eliminate it all together and then get on with the rest of their rights, ones where they can win the hearts and minds of folks, and follow in the long run battles of women and other minorities.
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Women is not exactly what I would call a minority, being over 50% of the world population.
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And one more thing to think about as this thread has sorta merged into the entirity of the TG discussion. But within NCAA and banning TG women, title ix probaly plays the biggest role for all athletic departments on collegiate campuses. And title ix issues can pop up really at any time. I was at a university that lost a title ix lawsuit and you would not realize the amount of things that go into title ix…we are talking coach offices sizes (down to the square inch), locker room sizes/spaces, lights for outdoor fields, travel itinaries, competitions, # of coaches on staff etc. Not just oh there is X # of males so you need Y # of females to even it out. I was the newest coach on said campus (I was HC for swimming + Triathlon) and yet I had the 2nd biggest office because I was head coach for women’s sports, previously the head coach of a male sport was in said office. But they had to measure every square inch and then play musical chairs as part of the settlement to make it right. Baseball had lights and softball didn’t, not because they didn’t want softball to have lights, but because the softball field butted up against a major road. In order to have lights it would have had to tear up the road and redo the entire lighting structure, which would have cost lots of money. But that was a title ix issue because baseball had lights, so they took the lights away. They weren’t trying to “demean” the women on that campus. Softball didn’t have lights cus of the location against a major road. Baseball was tucked away against a wooded area, it had no issues, but that was discrimination.
And this year we’ve seen that biological women are bringing discrimination / title ix issues when colleges allow TG athletes be on teams. So there are real far reaching consequences all going on here well beyond is it or isn’t it inclusive. This thread has sorta meshed into 1 all in one TG topic within sports, but within the NCAA movement it has real, real world implications to women’s rights.
First off I said women and minorities, but can see English is not your primary language. For most of the history of our country women have been marginalized and kept down, hell there are women alive today that were born before women could even vote. I was alive to see women shut out of sport, having to bandit to run in marathons.
But you are correct that in numbers they are superior to men in the us, pretty even worldwide. Is that your point you are trying to make, there are more of them?
Tbf @monty you said “women and other minorities”
I knew what you meant, but have to be sooo careful.
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That’s how I figured it would be sorted out.
It’s a tipping point - type problem. The women who spoke out previously were lambasted, scolded, cancelled, shouted down, whatever word you want to use. Hard to stand up against something as an individual, much easier when a few people support you, inevitable when enough people support you.
There hasn’t been a substantial loss of money for athletes/promoters/organizers/teams due to this issue. That will be the real tipping point.
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Yes, this is brought up a lot.
"It’s ONLY 10,"is the argument used to suggest that we’re awarding college scholarships to “only 10” transgender athletes, and that it’s “only 10” biological women who are losing their scholarships in their place.
Yet they can’t seem to apply that logic when its “only 10” transgender athletes who won’t get to compete in the women’s division, most of whom never would have been able to compete at all had they not transitioned, because they would have been unremarkable male athletes.
The fairness question is pretty obvious, which is why we moved to the “only 10, so what’s the big deal,” argument.
Here’s the issue: a single trans athlete not only displaces a biological female athlete from the spot on the team, and the scholarship. It really ruins the entire league that they participate in. It bumps a girl off the team, and takes away another girl’s 1st place trophy, and bumps the 3rd place girl off of the podium, and the 8th place girl out of the finals, and the 30th place girl from getting to go to nationals, and the all of the teams that would have finished higher if it wasn’t for this trans athlete, and then carry that down to the conference level competition, and the record books, etc. etc. etc. And on top of that, it just really sucks the win out of everyone’s accomplishments.
And all of that that I just wrote, you multiply it by the “only 10” athletes.
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my favourite thing was when a ‘transman’ beat a ‘man’ in a swim race. it was pretty good banter
I was not trying to imply anything other than what I said. That women are not a minority as you literally wrote in “women and other minorities” . I was not trying to imply that women had less rights than men a number of decades ago. And yes, I am Spanish, as in Spain Europe, but was educated in Hertfordshire and know the meaning of the words in your sentence. You trying to demean the value of my words (which are 100% correct) because English is not my native language… Well that does not align very well with your overall anti marginalization discourse. It would have been a lot nicer from your side to say “I stand corrected, I meant this…” Which I would have applauded.
But trying to demean me, or my words, because I am “Spanish” not nice from your side.
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That was not my intent, sorry you feel that way. It’s just that your comment about women numbers, well it seems like that is obvious to everyone on the planet and didnt need being pointed out. At least not without some contribution to the thread and topic, which it didnt seem you were interested in.
No worries. But you did say the contrary to the obvious, and there is content in my correction. It does not make sense to compare a minority which is a tiny fraction of a percentage point, to the absolute majority. Particularly if the basis of the comparison is what happened many decades ago when transgender where not even in the picture.
In any case, my position is that is sad that a transgender athlete can’t have the same opportunities as a non-transgender athlete, but that is life. We all have different limitations (not to be understood in a demeaning way) that steal certain opportunities from us, and we have to live with them. I think no basic rights can be taken away from individuals regardless of sex, religion, political inclinations or whatever. But being an athlete is not what I would call a basic right. As a short-sighted person, I never had the opportunity of being a fighter pilot, but that is also not a basic right.
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They do though. A transgender athlete may enter a competition in alignment with their biological sex, same as anybody else. In other words, nobody has the right to enter a competition outside of their biological sex.
You’re asking for special opportunities, not equal opportunities.
A better example of your fighter pilot would be someone who ate themselves to a very heavy weight. They had the opportunity to be a fighter pilot but due to an accumulation of choices/life events they no longer have that opportunity.
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