I’m not sure they have to do any better of a job - seems all their races sell out practically in minutes. I also doubt that they want the public perception that Kona IS Ironman to change. Your reason to do Kona is likely the exact public perception they desire. If that drives a few more people into the sport (and specifically, their races) then they did their job.
Duffy, sorry to say but this is the rub of the green. He has qualified for his spot based on his performance at a previous race. How he followed this up on race day is his prerogative.
You might be missing my point. You are passing judgement on how people got there. I’m just giving you an example of how the opinion of who’s deserving can be open to interpretation. I don’t see how the genetically gifted (lucky) is more deserving than some average joe lottery winner (lucky).
Should the guy with one arm and fake legs not be allowed because he can’t go sub 9? Should they give all the hand bike/wheel chair slots to able bodied fast guys?
BTW, generally (yes a generalization) the people who are actually there don’t seem to have the same attitude as you on who should or shouldn’t be there.
The only arbiter of who is deserving to be there is the owner of the event. You could always make your own race. Call it Judge Julio’s badasses only triathlon. No slow people allowed. No chicks. No handis. Oh, but it’s wetsuit legal.
I’m not sure they have to do any better of a job - seems all their races sell out practically in minutes. I also doubt that they want the public perception that Kona IS Ironman to change. Your reason to do Kona is likely the exact public perception they desire. If that drives a few more people into the sport (and specifically, their races) then they did their job.
I hear ya, but I did Vineman this year as my 2nd 140.6. It didn’t make sense to me to spend almost 3x the money on an entry fee just to say “I did an Ironman that no one has heard of.” I may as well do an Iron-distance race that nobody has heard of.
I’m not sure they have to do any better of a job - seems all their races sell out practically in minutes. I also doubt that they want the public perception that Kona IS Ironman to change. Your reason to do Kona is likely the exact public perception they desire. If that drives a few more people into the sport (and specifically, their races) then they did their job.
I hear ya, but I did Vineman this year as my 2nd 140.6. It didn’t make sense to me to spend almost 3x the money on an entry fee just to say “I did an Ironman that no one has heard of.” I may as well do an Iron-distance race that nobody has heard of.
Maybe you (we) should do an iron distance race and just say nothing.
It is called a World Championships because the WTC has the trademark and has marketed it as such. It is not an ITU world ultra distance championships. It was a World Championship before they had the lottery. It was called the World Championship before the WTC existed and back then anyone could sign up. This is just some historical info. I am not entering into the debate if there should or will be two races. I thnik it is just a silly idea.
“Bart, no where did you say that there should be two races, you only talked up an instance of where you put Ironman racing ahead of family prirorities.”
Touche! In my defense. The birthday celebration was scheduled only a couple of weeks before the party. There was like 200 people there and my wife and all of my kids were there so don’t think I was missed too much. .
It cracks me up when people challenge that Kona is the Ironman World Championship. Regardless of how many corporate/military/challenged slots they dole out, they still have the fastest people from the qualifiers toeing the line. I don’t know the number of slots they give out but let’s say it’s 200 (I think that’s high but let’s go with it). If they spread that out evenly across all of the races, that’s just under four slots per race. So you’re likely to get something like one more M35-39, one more M40-44, etc. Sure, maybe the person that got left out could have a great summer of training, show up in Kona and win his/her age group but it’s not all that likely…more importantly, it’s not how the game is played. The same thing happens for any World Championships. If you don’t qualify under your country’s standards, you’re out. Should the U.S. or Australia be given more slots to the Swimming World Championships because they have more fast swimmers? Should Eric Moussambani’s slot have gone to someone who “earned” it?
When all is said and done, Kona has all of the people who proved themselves to be the fastest in their qualifying races…with the exception of those who did not accept their slots. Yes, there are some people who can’t compete within their age group but those groups are just as random as any of the others. The person who places first among CAF is the World Champion in that group…same for XC, etc. Is that really any different than M45-49?
As several people have tirelessly pointed out, Ironman is a brand. Kona is the “Ironman World Championships”. It’s not the Triathlon World Championships or even the Iron-Distance World Championships.
Get over it.
Yes they can keep it to one race, all they have to do is decrease their Incestuous focus on Ironman racing being so focussed on North American races and dump their bullshit policy of corporate places, biggest loser winners and gasp “US Armed Services” athletes and keep it to their so called “Ironman World Championship” races to those who have qualified to compete.
If you don’t qualify, don’t toe the line…
If it makes you feel any better, they only give out 8 of those spots now, instead of 16.
You’re an ASS! Your little pee brain fails to realize that this race was conceived by US Armed Forces athletes and a majority of the first competitors were armed forces athletes. BTW, have you ever sacrificed anything for anyone other than yourself?
They used to have way more than 200 lottery spots, and a large number of fundraising slots. I would not be surprised if 1/5 of everyone at Kona is not elite. But as soon as they’ve raced Kona can claim elite status. It’s like allowing hard luck cases to run along side Usain Bolt at the World Championships in South Korea this past week. Lottery and fundraisers probably pay for the whole thing, and the hard luck cases allow for the human interest story the media love. If they split it into two races it would at least give the championship some credibility.
This has been covered ad nauseum here. As a local, i don’t think a 2nd IM race with the same number of people in town and the same effect on the roads will float with a lot of the locals unless it’s so far removed from IM Kona time that people start to forget. But even then I’m afraid it might be a bit overwhelming for some in our little village.
ATM, the roads in front of my house are closed for an Olympic length tri held today (Lavaman Keauhou) and people are screaming bloody murder about it. I don’t particularly mind the idea of a non championship 140.6 race out here say in February, but I might be a minority. But I’ve also been known to be grossly in error in the past.
And if you’re thinking along the lines of holding back to back IM distance races in October, a championship and a non championship … I seriously doubt that’d ever float.
Oh and FWIW, as has been pointed out, the Kona race is a World Championship because WTC says so, not because it’s truly a World Championship (including athletes from all sanctioned 140.6 events such as Rev3 and Challenge race winners). They do not have a trademark or service-mark on the name “World Championship”. You can’t do that. So if Rev3 or Challenge wanted their own World Championship here (or elsewhere) they could certainly call it that.
Racing in Kona doesn’t give anyone “elite status”. Anyone I’ve ever known who got a lottery slot (or qualified through XC for that matter) has been very humble about their experience and told everyone how much faster the qualifiers were.
The championship has all the credibility it needs. The people who have proven themselves to be the fastest are there if they want to be and I highly doubt than anyone who just missed a slot has a chance of winning their age group. For example, the winner of the M35-39 at Placid went 9:37:50 and the first guy to miss out on a slot went 10:00:02. If they took away all of the lottery/fundraising/etc. slots, there probably would have been a slot for him and it’s not likely he would be able to win in Kona. Even if he’s capable of 9:30 and just had a bad day, that’s the way things go in qualifiers. If you took away all of the non-qualifying slots, the same thing could happen. There have been top marathoners who missed out on the Olympics because they had a bad day in the trials.
Just because a race has some people who aren’t among the elite doesn’t mean you can’t have a world championship. In fact every world championship is like that. Sogelau Tuvalu from Ghana ran 15.66 in the 100m qualifying heat at the Track & Field World Championships, yesterday. There were two others who did not break 12 seconds. I ran faster than that when I was 12 years old! Does that mean they aren’t having “real” world championships?
No way the restaurant, hotel, gift shop, car rental, boat rides and city council would turn down the money of another IM in Kona. It’s a long one week event that gives the town and island a multimillion dollar shot in the arm. The locals might like it to not interfere with their lives, but they like and need the money more. If WTC wanted another race there the city would roll out the red carpet.
I’d sign up for general entry at IMKona (say in April) in an instant. I’d still want to try to complete for a WTC Ironman Championship spot in the Oct event, but I’d be very interested in doing “just a regular race” in Kona at another time in the year.
No way the restaurant, hotel, gift shop, car rental, boat rides and city council would turn down the money of another IM in Kona. It’s a long one week event that gives the town and island a multimillion dollar shot in the arm. The locals might like it to not interfere with their lives, but they like and need the money more. If WTC wanted another race there the city would roll out the red carpet.
You don’t know Hawaii County very well – actually, they wouldn’t roll out any red carpet and the public outcry would be rather vocal. I have no clue if the outcry would be from a majority of the population but it would be loud! As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I think the local community is divided roughly into thirds about the current race: 1/3 would like to see the race go away (for whatever reason real or imagined), 1/3 want it to stay at any cost (for whatever reason and regardless of any negatives) and the final third really don’t care. And tbh, no one out here has ever been able to come up with a very valid economic impact to the area from the current race (that I’ve seen anyway). It’s a nice one to be sure, but not as big as people might think. It’s certainly far, far less than what normal tourists bring during peak vacation season.
As I’ve said, personally I have no trouble with adding a second race and I’d like to see Ali`i Drive through Kailua Town closed to traffic 24/7/365. But WTC is no longer looked at as a local company and the current race is perceived by many as a gross imposition on our “hospitality.” (Such as it is.)
Personally I think February is a great time for another full distance race in Kona. Although the water’s cooler (sadly), temperatures are great, winds are calmer and it’s been awhile since the big tourist influx around the holidays (Nothing says Christmas like a palm tree apparently). It’s still height of the snow bird season though and the population is higher than early October (when the World Championship is held) so it’s already more crowded.
IMO though I’d rather see Challenge put a race out here in February than WTC. Just because.
Like I said, just cause I’ve lived here for ages doesn’t mean I’m right. I’ve been known to be wrong, and neither the county council (there are no city governments in Hawaii) nor WTC ever call me asking for my opinion on Ironman races. Go figure. Now it’s time to cut off my espresso supply … I think I’ve had *way *too much this morning.
Aloha and good discussion.
Yes they can keep it to one race, all they have to do is decrease their Incestuous focus on Ironman racing being so focussed on North American races and dump their bullshit policy of corporate places, biggest loser winners and gasp “US Armed Services” athletes and keep it to their so called “Ironman World Championship” races to those who have qualified to compete.
If you don’t qualify, don’t toe the line…
Sarcasm not appreciated. Many of us who compete in those slots can and do qualify outright and have many times. If you’re bored, look up (to name a few): Scott Jones, John Marinovich, Cam Loos (me and 8:54 IM), Scott (Kid) Poteet, Kristen Barnes, Laura Springer, Logan Franks (9:04 at Kona last year), Greg Price, Lee Boyer, Robert Killian, Brad Williams (afbadbrad). We are all servicemembers, all have or will race Kona, and pretty sure all of us have qualified outright. If we qualify on our own, our service MAY have the right to offer the Kona slot to some who has not qualified.
You may not like it, but consider the origins of IM and our sacrifice to country, commitment training, and challenges with family. Many of us (not me yet) have to train on deployments, no swimming for months on end, ride a bike in 115 degree heat in a submarine or connex box, can never know whether or not we can do a race we registered for due to deployments, etc.
Are you on the bubble to qualify? Sounds like sour grapes. Don’t like the system? WTC isn’t changing any time soon. You can gain a bunch of weight and try to get on TV. Work for NBC, be some big falutin’ CEO, or GASP join the military.
I’d suggest you consider your words a little more wisely. Also, I sincerely hope you are not one of those people who doesn’t take off your ball cap when OUR national anthem is played or before a race is talking through the entire song (like 3/4 of Wildflower participants did this year).
How about 2 Boston Marathons while we are at it
Which leads to the question: Oh really, cool-but which one did you do?
I say keep making it more elite by reducing the numbers at each race, Boston is making it more difficult for people to qualify and race to keep it an elite marathon (of course with a boat load of charity spots)
Racing in Kona doesn’t give anyone “elite status”. Anyone I’ve ever known who got a lottery slot (or qualified through XC for that matter) has been very humble about their experience and told everyone how much faster the qualifiers were.
Indeed. I’ve been a lottery winner and 14+ hour finisher at Kona and harbor nothing but the humblest feelings for having had the opportunity for the experience and to share the same roads as the rest of the talented athletes, professional or otherwise, who qualified for the race.
I personally decided to throw my name into the lottery hat while I was training for my first Ironman-distance triathlon (Vineman) even though it was an extremely challenging year to train (work-wise, being a co-founder at a high-tech start-up company), and by the time my name was drawn, I couldn’t even consider backing out of Vineman (for which I was training with a team oft-maligned-on-Slowtwitch, fund-raising for a disease). Faced with doing two races in 9 weeks, the first being my very first Ironman-distance race, and a previous family commitment that involved two weeks of international travel between the two races, I did the best I could. Even if the circumstances had been ideal, I wouldn’t have been faster than a 12.5 hour finisher.
Did I “deserve” to be there? I’ll leave that for you to judge. Do I for moment consider myself “elite” just because I participated in that race and did the best I could at that time? Hardly.
Humbly yours,
Berend
I’d sign up for general entry at IMKona (say in April) in an instant. I’d still want to try to complete for a WTC Ironman Championship spot in the Oct event, but I’d be very interested in doing “just a regular race” in Kona at another time in the year.
Honestly, I would come out of retirement to sign up for a general entry IMKona too. It would have to be in the summer because in April I’m still coming out of deep freeze. Or perhaps end of December - I would take back everything I’ve ever said about making an IM the family vacation (which it’s not) and I would take them all out for two weeks. Or even better, Thanksgiving week (no more having 20 relatives come to my house!).
I would like to focuse on the able bodied athletes…
WTC does advertise Kona race as a World Championship; and as such it should be reserved to the best athletes. And as such yes it matters how you get there - somehow I dont see anyone telling NBA players or athletics champion that they are genetically lucky. They are lucky, but they still have to work hard to stay there. And despite that I don’t see anyone trying to get to the world championships jsut on the basis of their hard work and commitment alone.
LEts rememebr Ttraithlon is a sport not a past time that is why it is a timed event. “everyone is here to have fun” attitude is not what World Championship is about. It does not mean that I dont appreciate the slower athletes, or athletes whose other commitments prevent them to realize the full potential in the sport - however I don’t think those people should expect to race World Championship as they would not expect to play in US OPEN jsut because they play tennis on the weekend.
…now flame away