My New Baby - Guru TriLite!

http://www.employees.org/~dacahill/guru4.jpgAll,

Just wanted to post a couple of pics of my new custom Guru ride. After six weeks of anxiously waiting, I was able to pick this up Friday night. I went for a 35 mile ride yesterday and everything fely great. This is my first attempt at a tri bike and/or aerobars. I have ridden a Talon setup for road in my tri’s the last two years. Let me know what you think. My plan is to get more aggressive on the front and remove some of the spacers.

Thanks for the feedback when I had questions on which bike to buy, whiuch components, etc.

Also, thanks go out to Jim O’Brien at The Right Gear in Kannapolis, NC. Great job on the spec and the fit. Highly recommended!

http://www.employees.org/~dacahill/guru1.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~dacahill/guru4.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~dacahill/guru1.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~dacahill/guru4.jpg

Thanks!

Boilerboy

very nice bike

were you fit on this? the aerobars seem to be tilted up a bit. how high are the spacers? how do you like the FSA bars?

Nice looking rig.

Why such a long stack at the stem? Is that safe?

Fleck

I was fit on the bike. I think there are 4cm of spacers currently. However, I think this gives me room to be more aggressive as I adjust to riding on Aerobars, etc. Not sure about the tilt on the aerobars. Are you saying they should be flatter? Just curious.

Boilerboy

with the upsweep of the bars, I ride mine much flatter. that seems like a pretty high stack. how comfortable are you riding on aerobars? when I first tried them, I rode like that until I got more comfortable riding lower.

Fleck,

The idea around the long stack at the stem was to be able to move down and be more aggressive when I become more fit and use to riding on aerobars (I have 4 cm there now). As stated, yesterday was my first ride on aerobars of any kind. Have never really thought it to be unsafe. Is it? I hope not, this bike was custom and not cheap! Also, I had this conversation with my fitter before the specs were sent to Guru, and he said not extending the headtube in the custom build would let me slowly adjust to the more aero position, and move lower. I think that makes sense, but I don’t want to be unsafe. What is considered safe for spacers?

The main reason I went with Guru as opposed to, say the P3, was the taller headtube. So, I have a 13 cm headtube.

Thanks for the input!

Boilerboy

I don’t want to alarm you or anyone else.

I will defer to more technical people here on the forum than myself, but I seem to recall reading something on the Velonews Technical pages, that the industry standard for safty on stack-height for carbon steerers, which many mid to high end bike now have, is 2.5 cm or one inch.

Now that being said, I see all kinds of tri-bikes with WAY more stack than 2.5 cm, so I am wondering why this disconnect between what the industry says and what I see out on the road.

Fleck

Hi boilerboy,

-Got your PM. First off, beautiful bike.

As for the headset spacers: Well, a lot of what I am expressing here is opinion, so take it for what it is worth. And remember, different people have different opinions.

Now, that out of the way…

I don’t use carbon headset spacers below the stem hardly at all. When the compression plug bolt is tightened to establish your headset adjustment the carbon spacers seem to be able to spread out or expand enough to influence the adjustment. The headset/stem area creeks at best, comes lose at worst. That is annoying.

Also, if you need to run that degree of stack height, it is best to do it with one alloy spacer sleeve 4 cm long (high) so you don;t have a series of them compressed against one another with the possibility of movement or vibrations in there. One unified headset spacer adds strength and stiffness to the front end and preserves head set adjustment. I looks better too. When I see a bunch of spacer stack up I get the (sometimes mistaken) impression that the rider’s head tube may have needed to be higher.

One thing oddly missing here is a conical top cap for your headset like this:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/reviews/FeltS32/s32spacer.jpg

A conical top cap can help do double duty by building up some head tube height and serving as the top cap of the headset assembly. The nice thing about this is that it is wider at the base giving the entire assembly good stability and is one piece so it won’t slide against itself.

I think at the center of this is the conern that you somehow got the wrong frame size. Now, realistically, it is impossible for me to say if you did or did not over the Internet. However, I will say these things: If Robert at Guru refered you to a fitter- the fitter is good. Robert knows his stuff and I know he is a perfectionist. I would stand behind his recommendation. For what it’s worth, if this is the position you ar riding the bike in I think you are OK. I mean, the proportions look about right to me saddle height to exposed post to head tube. Now, remember, this amounts to a wild-assed guess, but if you are riding it like this the frame probably is the right fit. Let me guess… Long leg, short torso… When I see aerobars turned up like that I immediately wonder, “Is his/her reach too long?”.

I think this is a beautiful bike that appears to be well proportioned and your dealer did a good job fitting you. It is worth exploring some additional strategies for supporting the stem position, i.e., one unified spacer from anodized aluminum or a conical headset cap. These items can be obtained from your dealer who can get them at Quality Bicycle Parts in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Good luck, awesome bike!

Oh, and by the way, each manufacturer publishes a different range of acceptable stack height above the headset, and (of course) each measures it differently. Some say “1.5 times the diameter of the steer tube” but does that mean to the top or bottom of the stem?

Others publish different standards. For instance, there are two documents in the box that comes with an Easton brand fork. One is an installation manual and the other an addendum. I’ve read both carefully, and neither specifies an “acceptable range” or a “maximum”. They don’t even address the issue in the installation manual I have here on my desk. The information we’ve received is from phoning Veltec Sports, the U.S. Easton distributor.

I am only using Easton for the purposes of explanation here.

Tom,

Great post. Very informative. Still if you crusie the bike racks at just about any triathlon, you will see some world records for stack height on a number of bikes:

  1. OK so there is some fuzziness on the safe limits of stack height. However, should this not be more standardized? It’s a critical place of high force transfer on the bike.

  2. Why are headtubes so short on $2,000 bikes that you need to use many $2.00 spacers to make the bike fit properly. Shouldn’t bike designers be taking this into consideration?

  3. . . or am I looking at point #2 backwards. Are athletes, fit expectations/needs out of line with what is available?

Fleck

“Not sure about the tilt on the aerobars. Are you saying they should be flatter?”

the armrests are angled up at about 10degrees. Usually they are flat or have a slight downward tilt (like a lesser version of Ulrich). But the key is to find whatever works for you. If lance set up his bike like that then you’d see it all over the place (see current straight extension trend).

beautiful frame!

Basic geometry says that tilting your bars upward results in your elbows being lower…you could flatten the bars out and get the whole rig lower, probably at least .5cm, if not a whole cm spacer… shouldn’t affect your Cda…

As usual Fleck, excellent questions reflecting some real thought. I wish all our customers devoted this much thought to bike fit.

  1. Yes, there is absolutely no consensus. This is a liability “hot potato” I don’t think the industry has not figured out yet. Basically, we phone the manufacturer and ask, and it is common to get different answers from the same manufacturer. Scary. We err on the side of caution.

  2. Why are head tubes so short? Well, they really aren’t that short on all brands. Guru head tubes tend to run a trifle tall for their frame size, so does Litespeed. Felt added 1 cm to their complete bikes in the head tube this year but still makes the Felt SC1 frame with a 110mm head tube in what they refer to as a 54cm. It is the same size as a 51 cm Cervelo R2.5, which has a slightly higher head tube. I just got a new Felt SC1 frameset- haven’t built it up yet… Cervelo P2K, P3 family run shortish and that is good. It’s all about options. It does make me cringe when I see these posts “Help me decide between a P3SL and a Guru Trilite”. Man, if you can ride one, the other probably isn’t even close to fitting in a given frame size- talk about opposite ends of the spectrum.

  3. Hmm. Good question. I think what is going on is a lot of bad fitting by a lot of guys who now call themselves “bike fitters”. They don;t understand how to get a torso a little lower and still make it comfortable. For most customers, they use this vernacular (which I don’t like) refering to a position as “aggressive” when it is low. to me, that infers “sacrificing comfort for speed”. I don’t buy that, and I don;t describe a position as “agressive” ever. All positions should be (relatively) comfortable, then as low and aero as is practicable while still facilitating good power output, comfort, handling, visibility, digestion and use of bike controls.

Damn you’re good Tom! Exactly right…long legs, short torso.

87.25cm inseam

40.75cm Thigh

58cm torso

Again, thanks for the reply. Eases my mind…a lot. Fleck has some great thoughts. I absolutely love reading this forum and everyone’s thoughts…although it can make you go crazy thinking about everything! As I told Jim from Right Gear, I am jealous of what you guys do. I wish I could be doing what I absolutely love everyday (like you said, Christmas everyday for you)!!

Boilerboy

“When I see aerobars turned up like that I immediately wonder, “Is his/her reach too long?””

Tom…in having done thousands more fittings than I’ve done…is overextended reach the most common culprit in someone feeling like their aerobars need to be upturned like this? I suspected as much, but without the depth of experience you have, I could not adequately assert that this is the case (at least most of the time…sometimes its because thats the way the person has always ridden aerobars…and thats the way Lemond or someone else had theirs…Others remember reading the Bicycling mag advice that aerobars should be positioned such that the hands and forearms forced the air downward and back instead of “scooping” the air)…anyway…the upturned aerobars have always bothered me…ever since I figured out that I liked mine upturned on my too-large-for-me Trek 1600 back in the late 80s…all because I was reaching for the moon…

Well, give credit to Robert at Guru and to your local bike fitter for getting you on the right bike. Can you imagine if you had just bought a P3? Holy headset spacers…

Not every bike works for everybody.