Okay - so WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE!!!
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/07/08/world/schmidt040708
An American pilot makes an error and drops a bomb on a Canadian unit, killing four and injuring eight others. He is reprimanded and forced to give up $5600 in pay as his only penalty. Now he’s suing the air force?
Granted, I’ve never understood the military, but this is sheer madness!
At first I, too, thought it was complete madness and injustice.
But here is the real “catch” to the story, and it is a good one. Both of the US pilots who were involved the mission used in their defense an incredible set of facts that the US govt. was completely helpless to refute: the USAF forced the pilots (if they wanted to remain on flight status) to take several mind-altering drugs that have been proven beyond any scientific doubt to highly impair judgement and reason, among other things. These are drugs that have never been fully tested in the applications used by the military and drugs that are completely illegal to take (in the US) while piloting (privately or commercially), or while driving, or for recreational reasons. THAT was the clincher that made the USAF put its little tail between its legs.
Basically, USAF SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) are what killed those innocent Canadian soldiers. I feel bad for them and their families.
Sadly, for small, single and two pilot aircraft on long combat missions, US pilots are expected to pop pills that (at different times, of course) tell their bodies when to wake up, stay alert, calm down, fall asleep, stop digestion, and when to take a crap. Welcome to the world of combat aviation…
If that is the case, then isn’t it reasonable to declare that the USAF is responsible for the deaths? If so, why was the other pilot “gently forced” to accept a reprimand and resign his post? Why does Maj Schmidt no longer have flight status? And why oh why is he suing for violation of privacy, rather than being forced to take mind-altreing drugs and which resulted in such a horrible turn of events?
I can accept that the pilots may not have been wholly responsible for the deaths, given the drug evidence - but does this not deeply implicate the USAF as responsible?
Something here stinks, and I am fairly certain that the United States would never accept such a farce had it been their soldiers killed.
Yeah, right, the US Air Force will accept responsibility and admit that its entire way of dealing with aviators in combat is wrong. (Actually, SOPs like these have already killed numerous US soldiers, but they are just listed as ‘friendly fire’ and other misc. whitewashing.)
Anyway, you let me know when hell freezes over…
Wow, even with your military background, you seem quick to jump on the side of the establishment and against the the side of the soldier under fire.
I don’t know all the names of the drugs (and there are many) the USAF gives to some of its pilots (to tell their bodies when to wake up, stay alert, calm down, fall asleep, stop digestion, when to take a crap, etc.), but I do know that, during the flying mission in question, the pilots were told to take several different types of powerful amphetamines, all of which are completely illegal for aviation use (or even recreational use) in the US.
Do you know much about the case? Because from what I learned, they did not ignore a direct order. They used their (highly impaired) judgement to make a “fire/no fire” decision in a very unclear situation. A prudent aviator would have definitely made a different decision, but a stoned aviator is obviously not a prudent aviator.
As a Canuk who grew up as an air force brat with my dad as a fighter pilot, I view the whole thing as a tragic horrible accident. It was a terrible mistake and unfortunately these things do happen in combat. Condolences to the families and hopefully lessons are learned so this never happens again.
What does surprise me is how unremorseful the pilot appears to be. I saw an interview his wife, and she was even worse. Her only concern is that her husband’s reputation has been tarnished. She didn’t seem concerned about anything else.
You know what folks…war sucks…we kill people, we try to kill the bad people - however sometimes shit happens. Remember Gulf War 1 where our own Helo was shooting up our own tanks? Oops…In WWII and WWI we had our own cannons shelling our own people…more than once. War sucks, get over it.
“…war sucks…- however sometimes shit happens.”
Essentially that’s what I said. However, it should be determined clearly whether or not this tragic accident was the fault of the pilot or was it due to ground control.
Do we know that for sure though Tibbs? With out recorded voice (and I bet there is) it is hard to know what to think other than war sucks.
so why didn’t that happen? (the nailing to the cross)
I’m not sure what kind of drugs you have taken while at your station(s), but from my experience in the cockpit and from the evidence I saw about the impressive array and type of drugs these pilots had to take, it is very clear (to me) that they (the drugs) played a significant role in this sad mess. No, conspiracy here, just a lame-brained USAF idea of drugging pilots. And obviously someone (the court, the judge?) was also convinced enough the let the pilots off with a slap on the wrist.
Drugs are no excuse
Hello !!! I don’t know what you call an “excuse” but being REQUIRED to take drugs that profoundly affect your judgement (and that you would never take voluntarily) and that are ILLEGAL to take while flying with or without passengers here in the good 'ol USA is NOT an “excuse”–it is a REASON.
I’d love to see you fly a plane while you are high on uppers.
Maybe you do, but I don’t have encylopedic memory. Also, seeing as I am not a big druggie myself, I don’t remember every type, name, or dose of the crap they had to pop. Look it up if it interests you. Call your USAF buddies and they could probably get you something from that dept. that lists every one of the drugs they give to pilots.
There is a PDF file transcripting the comm on that link given above.
Ok - looked into it a little more, but I should mention that I never actually expected the USAF to step up and take the blame - such things will never occur.
How is the “mind controlling drugs” defense relistically taken seriously given the text of the reprimand? (see below) Frankly, given the wording I read I am shocked that he was not dishonorably discharged and legally tried for his actions in a civillian court of law.
What bother me most however, is the absolute lack of remorse for the victims of his actions, and that he continues to proprgate his own “victimhood” - that being his name and career. This man is despicable.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/verdict.html
U.S. Air Force Verdict
CBC News Online | July 6, 2004
On July 6, 2004 Lt. Gen. Bruce Carlson, 8th Air Force Commander, found U.S. Air Force Major Harry Schmidt guilty of dereliction of duty for his role in the April 17, 2002 Tarnak Farms fratricide bombing incident which resulted in the deaths of four Canadian soldiers and the serious injury of eight others.
TEXT OF DECISION
Approved Punishment–Schmidt Art 15
Forfeiture of $2,836.00 pay per month for 2 months. Reprimand.
You are hereby reprimanded. You flagrantly disregarded a direct order from the controlling agency, exercised a total lack of basic flight discipline over your aircraft, and blatantly ignored the applicable rules of engagement and special instructions. Your willful misconduct directly caused the most egregious consequences imaginable, the deaths of four coalition soldiers and injury to eight others. The victims of your callous misbehavior were from one of our staunch allies in Operation ENDURING FREEDOM and were your comrades-in-arms.
You acted shamefully on 17 April 2002 over Tarnak Farms, Afghanistan, exhibiting arrogance and a lack of flight discipline. When your flight lead warned you to “make sure it’s not friendlies” and the Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft controller directed you to “stand by” and later to “hold fire,” you should have marked the location with your targeting pod. Thereafter, if you believed, as you stated, you and your leader were threatened, you should have taken a series of evasive actions and remained at a safe distance to await further instructions from AWACS. Instead, you closed on the target and blatantly disobeyed the direction to “hold fire.” Your failure to follow that order is inexcusable. I do not believe you acted in defense of Major Umbach or yourself. Your actions indicate that you used your self-defense declaration as a pretext to strike a target, which you rashly decided was an enemy firing position, and about which you had exhausted your patience in waiting for clearance from the Combined Air Operations Center to engage. You used the inherent right of self-defense as an excuse to wage your own war.
In your personal presentation before me on 1 July 2004, I was astounded that you portrayed yourself as a victim of the disciplinary process without expressing heartfelt remorse over the deaths and injuries you caused to the members of the Canadian Forces. In fact, you were obviously angry that the United States Air Force had dared to question your actions during the 17 April 2002 tragedy. Far from providing any defense for your actions, the written materials you presented to me at the hearing only served to illustrate the degree to which you lacked flight discipline as a wingman of COFFEE Flight on 17 April 2002.
Through your arrogance, you undermined one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world, consisting of the Combined Air Operations Center, the Airborne Warning and Control System, and highly disciplined pilots, all of whom must work together in an integrated fashion to achieve combat goals. The United States Air Force is a major contributor to military victories over our Nation’s enemies because our pilots possess superior flight discipline. However, your actions on the night of 17 April 2002 demonstrate an astonishing lack of flight discipline. You were blessed with an aptitude for aviation, your nation provided you the best aviation training on the planet, and you acquired combat expertise in previous armed conflicts. However, by your gross poor judgment, you ignored your training and your duty to exercise flight discipline, and the result was tragic. I have no faith in your abilities to perform in a combat environment.
I am concerned about more than your poor airmanship; I am also greatly concerned about your officership and judgment. Our Air Force core values stress “integrity first.” Following the engagement in question, you lied about the reasons why you engaged the target after you were directed to hold fire and then you sought to blame others. You had the right to remain silent, but not the right to lie. In short, the final casualty of the engagement over Kandahar on 17 April 2002 was your integrity.
Very compelling, but a few problems remain. I don’t know the pilot, so I certainly can’t speak for him and his remorse or lack thereof. The USAF staff complain (in the text you posted) that the pilot exercised very poor judgement–no argument from me about that.
But if the Air Force really cared a rat’s ass for good judgement, then what in God’s hell are they doing forcing their own pilots to comsume drugs while PILOTING LETHAL AIRCRAFT AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS over both friendly and enemy forces???! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if you do this, it won’t be long until someone gets killed.
In any case, the evidence the pilots’ attorneys presented was likely very convincing (I saw only part of it, and I would say it was) because the pilots got off.
So let me get this straight the military gives “mind altering drugs” to pilots for what? To make it more challenging? Come on thats BS. If they give them anything it’s to improve performance. Hallucinagenics are mind altering drugs amphetamines are not (caveat) unless extreme sleep deprivation is involved. I am sure that in the thousands of hours they are trained they are tested to see if they have atypical reactions to the protocol. Fatigue has been determined to be a greater impairment than alcohol in driving. The real question was if they were cleared to fire on the target or not. If they were than it was an unfortunate friendly fire incident if not than some type of action depending on the specific circumstances must be determined. The whole amphetamine issue is bogus, maybe the lawyers ploy if they had in fact fired against or without proper authorization.
I am sure that in the thousands of hours they are trained they are tested to see if they have atypical reactions to the protocol
You absolutely sure of that? So the almighty USAF never makes mistakes?
Drug issue being bogus or not, the fact that they were under the influence of uppers convinced someone high up, as the pilots got off effectively scot free. And next time you take a commercial airline flight, do let me know. I’ll talk to your crew and let them know that you would have no problem if they pop some uppers before take-off.
My background is Navy, but USAF probably has similar protocols, although this use of “Go, No Go” pills is more common in USAF. Aerospace physiologists perform baseline tests prior to having a pilot consume said pills. They are then retested to determine the abilities of the pilot and level of impairment (if any) after consuming pills. If they are so “mind altering”, the use would not be permitted or endorsed in a pilot whose mind is so altered (at least not in the Navy). All signs point to some swinging dick itching to get a combat kill. His apparent lack of remorse is unfortunate. Also, in the past, AWACS crews have been prosecuted for failing to issue a no fire order when similar situations occurred. I firmly believe that such order was issued in this case and was simply ignored.
I would prefer a nervously alert competent pilot to a tired/sleepy competent pilot any day.
I would prefer a nervously alert competent pilot to a tired/sleepy competent pilot any day.
Wow, some truly amazing thoughts there. Sometimes I truly wonder about folks…
So am I safe to assume you would also prefer “nervously alert” juiced truckers barreling down the highway when you (and all the folks you care about) are sharing the highways with them inches away at 70 mph? Because if so, lets petition the DOT and FAA to allow truckers to do that and also to allow airline pilots to fly 400-ton monsters all spiced up! Because I am sure with all these drivers and pilots so competent and “nervously alert”, we will all be much safer. Ask Bushie and maybe he can even make you the new secretary of transportation!!