Wondering how many of you out there with suspect knees have been able to stay competitive with minimal running. Have been out of multi for several years rehabbing the knees and they feel outstanding. Doing about 13-15 hours a week on the bike and it’s stronger than it has ever been…feel okay about doing some runs this winter and building a nice aerobic base…slowly.
Thinking about doing some running next year and focusing on nothing more than sprints.
I have no delusions of being fast any more, but I want to know where some of you who have had to scale back your running due to knees found the minimums for being able to finish a 5k w/o dying.
I have no delusions of ever running fast again, but I want to get an idea of what may have worked for others. I don’t really have any running base in my legs with the years off, but FWIW my good knees road race 5k was 17:27 and 10K was 35:48…will never be there again, but I’m not afraid to hurt either…just the right kind of hurt. Has nothing to do with being unwilling to suffer, but there is a marked difference in searing lung burn vs. degenerative cart/lig/tendon issues.
There’s a huge range of times that fall under the heading “being able to finish a 5k w/o dying”. Just like there’s a huge range of folks with knee issues.
What’s up with your knee? What are you rehabbing? What has your orthopedist and PT suggested? What kind of rehab are you doing? When was the last time you ran?
2 scopes on right knee(medial meniscus), blown out MCL(skiing injury) and sprained ACL. All feels good now, last run nearly 2 years ago. No more rehabbing at this point I’m free to do as I like. However, at 38 and having been under the knife 3 times already I’m leery of doing anything too fast or intense…too soon. Just taking baby steps.
Like I said, have no delusions of going fast again. I’m cycling better than I ever have before so I know my lungs and CV system could finish a 5k, but wondered about some programs. Maybe 2 runs a week? I dunno…? I used to run 35+ a week.
Not sure what kind of knee problems you had or how severe, but I’ve had great success with minimal running. My emerging knee problems are now non-existent.
In HS I was an 18 flat 5K runner in XC, then took about 10 years off. Came back and starting getting all kinds of injuries - shin splints, stress fractures, ITB, runner’s knee, etc. The knee problems were the most concerning since I never had a hint of that in HS.
Finally switched over to minimal shoes (Nike XC Zoom Streak) about 4 years ago, and have never looked back. My knees feel great. Last year was my best year running in my life (I didn’t have the speed of my youth for say the 2 mile down, but I also wasn’t doing any 10 x 400 repeats either). My guess is that all the padding they put under the shoe requires a heel flare for stability, which alters my gait enough to cause the knee problems, and also leads to a premature heel strike.
The only problem with minimal running is that it takes the lower legs and feet a good amount of time to adapt. I’m coming off of several months of little running, and I have my ups and downs.
I actually found out through rehab that I have 5*+ pronation on the right and now that I have orthotics my knees are insanely better…only 1* on the left…my back even feels better.
I do think running with the orthotics will most likely keep me from having the injuries that plagued me back in the day.
It will be interesting to get in some properly fitted shoes with my orthotics to see how my body reacts.
How many days, what mileage and what race distances are you doing?
Were your tears traumatic, or insidious? It seems to me (anecdotally speaking, anyway) like that can play a role in future issues/complications…
I know many people who run just fine following menisectomies or meniscal repairs or ACL tears. (Of course, I know others who don’t…but let’s be positive ;-))
After my first one, I ran for quite a while, including in college. In fact, all of my best times came after my first surgery. So that in and of itself isn’t a deal breaker.
I’m not quite a member of BKC, but I had my first knee injury (sort of) late last year, and am just now coming back. I had a pretty bad case of patellar tendonitis that I didn’t get anyone to look at for too long. Once I did, my ortho and PT told me I wouldn’t be able to run more than 15 mi/wk … if I was lucky. This was back in late March.
Since then, I’ve been building up very very very slowly, slowly to the point that it’s taken me over 3 months to add 5 miles to my weekly total. This week should be the first 20 mi week in over a year. I’ve been running all miles at an easy pace, and at the sign of any pain, I’ve scaled back. It’s been infuriating at times, what with the 2-steps-forward-1-step-back, but it’s working. I’m still slower than I’d like to be, and I’m running fewer miles than I’d like to run, but I’ll get there eventually.
I don’t know if this helps you at all. If you’re at a point where you can run X mi/wk and want to build more, I’d suggest going slowly and accepting that it’s a long-term process.
don’t know what your problems are but I’d suggest when coming back start small then build often before building to bigger.
Lots of 10-15 min runs to start with, and lots of consistency. 3-4x per week for the first couple of weeks add a day of running every other week until you are at 6-7x per week BEFORE extending duration.
In my experience working with athletes, talking with PT’s, docs and other coaches, it’s the people that run only 3-4x per week that seem to have more issues.
Sorry my previous post didn’t really address your questions. After posting I reread your post and noticed you were actually asking for training advice. With your list of issues, I’m not qualified to help much.
Only thing I can say is that after many many injuries, I am now very in tune with my body. Also, I’ve noticed that running in minimal shoes provides me better feedback on when an injury is developing. My feet and lower legs tell me when I’ve overdone it and need to back off. In conventional shoes it always seemed like things appeared out of nowhere. I also do all of my training by feel. I set general goals for my weekly mileage, number of miles per run, and effort; but give myself flexibility if I am not feeling good. If I feel good one week, or one day, I push things. If I feel bad, I reassess and shut it down if needed and come back to fight another day.
So in order of priority: 1) run 5 - 7 days no matter how I feel, 2) a goal range for weekly total mileage and mileage per run, and 3) a goal effort per run.
As far as days, mileage, and race distances:
Days: I subscribe to the advice of several guys I admire on this forum that the more days you run the better. As I said above, my goal is 5 at minimum, and always strive to get up to 6-7 consistently. 2007-2008 was in this category for the most part, and it really paid dividends. After a year of this, I couldn’t believe how fit I was becoming on the run, but my training was halted when my first child was born in Sept. 2008.
Mileage: Right now my weekly mileage is pretty low - in the 0 - 15 mpw range. That’s partly a result of me having a tough time staying consistent recently (I have a busy job and the first child deal); and partly a result of a long lay-off (father deal) so I’ve had to take it slow and strengthen the lower legs. I guess my goal yearly mpw would be around 20-30 miles with the ability to go up to 50 or 60 mpw during heavy training. Pretty much what I did all through 2007-2008.
Race Distances: No races planned for me. Last year I did a July 4th 4 miler, IMLP and one sprint after that. If I get into shape, I’ll probably jump into the occasional local running and triathlon races. I never race much. Racing is expensive and I just enjoy the training and being fit. I’d like to be fit enough to make a serious push towards a kona qualifying spot in a couple of years. Starting in July 2007 from almost zero fitness I was still .5 hour away by July 2008. I need to start from a decent fitness level to have a serious chance at qualifying.
.5 hour from a Kona slot…that’s a lot closer than I will ever be! I know my swim would be doable, the bike is where I would do my damage, but no way could I ever put together even a HIM run to be competitive for a slot. Never happen.
I think if my bod gets able to handle long running again I will try for a lottery just to say I have been to Kona and soak it all in…the ambiance of it all.
You had your surgery a long time ago but I think my current rehab plan might be of interest to you. I am rehabbing from a lateral release and microfracture surgery that I had 12 weeks ago. I am currently doing a slow build with a target of being able to do an Oly in May. Since I am doing such an incremental running build I have also taken the opportunity to begin running in minimalist footwear. I retired my Asics 2140’s and am running in Nike XC Waffle Racers 4-5 times a week on a rubber track at the gym (the shoes wouldn’t be good for concrete running). This week I started adding in a day of running just in socks. I started with just a half-mile a day and am up to 1.25 miles. I know I could run much longer/farther but I am forcing myself to build a nice base and not risk any additional injury. If I continue to feel ok I am going to add somewhere between 10% and a quarter mile a week until I can get up to about 3 miles at which point I expect to hold steady for awhile. I am the type of person who normally quickly ramps up speed and mileage so when I am feeling good it is a real challenge to hold myself back but I know it is my best chance for being able to race consistently in the future. I am spending the time I am not running in the pool which is working out to be time well spent.
Listen to desert dude, he’s one of the guys I was talking about. He’s truly an expert in my book and his advice has helped me greatly.
In line with his suggestion, I should have added the caveat that right now I am at 3-4 days per week with a near term goal of 5 days a week. And my personal experience is the more frequently I can run, the less likely I am to get injured.
Well, I can run 8 min miles in a tri off of no run training and that’s pretty much been my situation for the last 2 years. And I can still podium in my AG in local races.
But here’s the deal…I think that 90% of us who have chronic running injuries can get over them if we change our approach to running. The typical triathlon training is pretty much the worst case for running injuries. We tend to run 3 times per week and get over half our weekly mileage in one long run.
We need to run 6 days per week regardless. Sometimes those runs might only be a mile so you only need to spare 8-10 minutes. Spreading out the running over 6 days evens out the stress load and results in the adaptation we need to be able to handle the impact.
And we need to start with a ridiculously low amount of running initially. For instance, I’m currently running 5 minutes per day. Seems like a waste of time right? Not if it gets me running injury free.
I suggest this: If you are running now, take your weekly mileage and spread it out over 6 days and then gradually increase according to the 10% rule and only increase when the current mileage quota feels effortless. (it should all be slow and easy).
And we need to start with a ridiculously low amount of running initially. For instance, I’m currently running 5 minutes per day. Seems like a waste of time right? Not if it gets me running injury free.
I suggest this: If you are running now, take your weekly mileage and spread it out over 6 days and then gradually increase according to the 10% rule and only increase when the current mileage quota feels effortless. (it should all be slow and easy).
Amen! This is EXACTLY what I did when I started back up, and it is what I’m doing now. No doubt it’s a slow process, and I haven’t seen instant results, but I’m running a little faster, and without pain. And it only took an injury that completely sidelined me for 6 months to change my ways!
I took the time to build a solid aerobic base with my cycling when I came back and I’m faster now than I was in my peak triathlon days in college. Granted all I do is ride with no other sports, but I could drop the old me at a moments notice. I think it’s because I took it ridiculously slow building up and put in more easy days than hard. I never used to take it easy enough.
To that end the HR monitor has helped me in that it forces me to back off and take it easy…my problem is that I want to go hard every time.
I am going to take this philosophy into my running this winter as well.
I disagree on the waffle racers. I’ve done lots of running on the Nike XC waffle racers, and all on concrete. I love those shoes. I did my first open marathon in them in Oct. 2005 after my switch to minimal running.
My only problem with them was that I was wearing through the tread very quickly on the outside of my left foot due to some asymmetry in my gait. After about 200 miles I’d have a nearly perfect right shoe and be through the tread on the left shoe. I switched last winter to the Zoom Streak XC and have had much better durability. Still wears in the same spot, just not as fast.
They are pretty solid and even the marathon plans have you running only 3x per week. Plus, they rely heavily on x-training, which is nice for us tri-folks.
I would put the caveat on the FIRST plans that they should only be used if someone has a substantial base under them, and that they should only be used in conjunction with a specific race-day goal. They are not an “everyday training plan.”
