Hey guys, just curious from the number crunchers out there. The bike always seems to get more attention on the ST forum from the power meter perspective. Anyone have any insight on running an open 5k and then converting that to Ironman pacing? How close is Ironman pacing to marathon pace set by the McMillan calculator?
Just a ballpark or any actual cases would be great.
Using a 5k to predict a marathon is already a huge stretch. Adding in all the additional variables of an IM marathon? It is not even worth thinking about.
…but since you asked, take whatever McMillan says you should do for a marathon and then add 20 or 30 minutes.
Of course! I just meant from a training pace purpose. so we are saying McMillan Marathon pace +1 min/ mile?
Check this out: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=5209120#5209120
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to train for a ironman, dont focus on a certain pace or trying to find a relationship with your 5km time. focus on becoming a overall better runner, this will be your best approach to become a good runner at ironman. This and doing the proper work on the swim and bike
So JonnyO that brings me to an important point. Many people consistently say “just become a better runner”. In the classic Ironman Build we see people training with a big bike ride on Saturday and then a Long Run on Sunday. Can’t we argue that we are running that Long Run at a pace that isn’t realistic for Ironman pacing?
Would it be better to throw the classic Ironman week out the window and just say do bigger bricks every other week to really learn optimal pacing outside of the Ironman race setting? Are we advising people to run with a watch for the Ironman Marathon or should they be running on feel?
Does anyone really know that “feel” without over pacing and experiencing a fade…
you ask good questions:
-i never train athletes with the ‘‘said classic ironman build’’ i leave this for coaching softwares. I work with athlete to achieve top performance and putting 2 key session like long ride and a long run back to back isn’t the best way to develop a athlete. i try to split them a few days appart. Long run during the week is a better approach in my opinion if you want to do your long ride on the weekend.
-brick are not necessary to learn good pacing. Powermeter can teach you pacing within a very short amount of time and leave zero guess work. you don’t need to run off the bike in training to run well and fast off the bike in a ironman. I got age group athlete all the way down to the 3:0X on no/few bricks.
-for 90% of athletes, running at ironman pace in training is conterproductive as it s TOO slow to start with. that is why i recommend focusing on become a better runner…most run will be at faster pace then ironman unless you are at a very elite level (sub 3h marathon off the bike)
-most of my athlete wont use a watch for pacing in a ironman. on the run, they all go by feel. START EASY…hold it… and try to not slow down. simple, true, effective way.
a fade is normal…very few will ever negative split a ironman marathon. But fading dosnt mean bad pacing, it s simply the nature of the event. as long as the drop of pace is minimal or small, there is no issue.
What do you feel is a good positive split for an IM run? Let’s say 3:30-4:00 runners.
Thanks
Dave
less than 10 minutes would be a very well pace/executed race for that kind of runner.
for a 3h runner…perhaps 5ish…
Pacing the run is just like every other race IMHO. You always feel great at the beginning and potentially can start out too fast then fade. For the triathlons, it’s even easier because you’re really warmed up from being on the bike so you can really fly those first miles. The key is manage that fast few miles in relation to your overall pace.
X2 on doing the the long run during the week and long ride on the weekend. Being able to do a “quality” long run without being dead tired from the long ride helps you become a better runner.
Good luck.
-for 90% of athletes, running at ironman pace in training is conterproductive as it s TOO slow to start with. that is why i recommend focusing on become a better runner…most run will be at faster pace then ironman unless you are at a very elite level (sub 3h marathon off the bike)
I’m in the 10% camp (3:08 IM PB, aiming for sub 3h). If I run more than 15k at ironman pace (6:50/mile) in training, my legs are thrashed for at least a week. Currently I am doing hilly long runs (2h+) at a much slower pace (~7:50/mile) as I can recover from this within 2 days. Do you think this is a good approach? Or should I work more on my impact resistance by gradual increase of the ironman pace run (let’s say from 15k to 25-30k?). My mileage is between 30-40 mi/wk, cannot increase this much as I need also swim&bike.
-for 90% of athletes, running at ironman pace in training is conterproductive as it s TOO slow to start with. that is why i recommend focusing on become a better runner…most run will be at faster pace then ironman unless you are at a very elite level (sub 3h marathon off the bike)
I’m in the 10% camp (3:08 IM PB, aiming for sub 3h). If I run more than 15k at ironman pace (6:50/mile) in training, my legs are thrashed for at least a week. Currently I am doing hilly long runs (2h+) at a much slower pace (~7:50/mile) as I can recover from this within 2 days. Do you think this is a good approach? Or should I work more on my impact resistance by gradual increase of the ironman pace run (let’s say from 15k to 25-30k?). My mileage is between 30-40 mi/wk, cannot increase this much as I need also swim&bike.
I’m in the same boat…though only a 3:21 IM (only done one, went out too fast and biked a little hard). But I agree, my easy run pace at the top of zone 1 is right around 7:30-7:40 and that was right about where I ran. But my ideal time would be around a 7:20, and I think if I had gone out slower and biked just a little more conservative, that would have been possible. I kept trying to get to a 7:25-7:30 in the race, but cramping held me back and eventually destroyed my run form and I slowed to 8:00 pace.
I’m thinking that I’m going to try doing my long runs at a negative split and start out a little slow then increase to just above IM pace. Otherwise get in my strength training and maintain it late into the season at least 1 session a week. I think the cramping was just neuromuscular, not biochemical (salt). I just pushed myself beyond my specific fitness.
I think maximizing mileage is still the best approach. Due to injury, I only have I think 3 weeks at 50 miles this summer leading up to it and that just wasn’t enough. Plus I have 5-6lbs I could still lose. That would but me 10s per mile right away.
Personally I’m astonished you ran 3:08 on just 30-40mpw… holy crap. How often are you running? Seriously consider going to 6 days a week and just going ot 45mpw with maybe a run focus 2 months out that puts you around 50mpw for even just 2 weeks, then back off and do a bike focus. I think that fitness will carry on. I did a run focus in Dec.-Jan, then got injuries but bounced back and still killed a 1/2 mary PR in a poorly paced race May (ran a 10k PR in it too and went out within 20 seconds of a 5k PR.)
Clearly your a very gifted runner. You recovery, IMO right now sucks! You should be bouncing back and able to do runs even harder than that for those distances, but you are an good mileage for 70.3, but minimal for IM.
Just run more and do a 1 mile TT on a predefined course at a fixed HR about 8-10bpm below threshold once every few weeks to track changes in run economy and fitness. For example at a 160HR (about 10bpm less that threshold) I slowly went form about 6:00 to 5:45 over 4 months then leveled off. You should be doing that pace at just 145 bpm I’d guess. You suck!
-first, if you made it to 3:08 marathon IM on a accurate course, then your approach is definitly working to a certain point. It s hard for me to put a judgement without knowing a athlete and the overall program.
with a accomplish athlete like you, it comes down to looking at the overall program and trying to see why the long run beat you up so much. you should be a very good runner with decent running economy.
-worth looking at option of having you run twice a day instead of 1 long run. This would yield a overall faster pace and a faster recovery also.
-it come down also to steady state/tempo runs. how long, how often, important to develop this aspect so running your 6:50.miles dost beat you\
-surface you run on during those long run…try to stick to soft…trails, dirth, grass etc.
a final comment, not many athlete can run under 3h at the ironman on low volume, it s one of the important factor and you are definitly on the low end. it might become your limiting factor in the coming years. But keep the good work, and have a good go at it!!!
I tried winter run focus one season (50 mpw for three months) and it didn’t work. I was tired, my running din’t get any better and my bike and swimming got worse. I had the biggest success with balanced approach of 50% biking 30% running 20% swimming (timewise). I agree that my recovery sucks, but at 80 kg (176 lbs) this is not that surprising. I am running 4-5x per week, maybe I should try to increase the frequency to 6-7 runs per week to recover faster.
I’m not that good runner (2:53 open maraton PR) I just pay an attention to pacing in the race and slow down less than others, who may be much better runners than me.
My ironman pace long run is on an asphalt trail, this is my only option if I want to keep the pace steady. All soft trails here are too hilly for ironman specific training. This is my biggest dilemma now - should I try to build my resistance for 6:50/mile pace on asphalt (which is pretty race specific) or should I keep running 7:50/mile on soft hilly trails which isn’t race specific at all, but I can run longer and recover faster?
i m not sure where you are in your training plan but periodization take you from general to specific.
if you are going for hawaii… better be specific right now.
if you are in general non specific prep… dont worrie about it! running pace in trails isnt as important, as long as your getting the work done.
Peter reid would run a lot of his ironman hawaii key long run on trails. i did a few with him leading up to his 2003 win. He would favor trails for the recovery aspect and been able to put more quality training the next day. I m definitly of that camp. a long run should not stop you from having a good quality training day right after.
I tried winter run focus one season (50 mpw for three months) and it didn’t work. I was tired, my running din’t get any better and my bike and swimming got worse. I had the biggest success with balanced approach of 50% biking 30% running 20% swimming (timewise). I agree that my recovery sucks, but at 80 kg (176 lbs) this is not that surprising. I am running 4-5x per week, maybe I should try to increase the frequency to 6-7 runs per week to recover faster.
I’m not that good runner (2:53 open maraton PR) I just pay an attention to pacing in the race and slow down less than others, who may be much better runners than me.
Your a strange cat. How were you breaking up that 50 mpw. I was tired, but not that beaten up doing 50-55mpw + 300 bike + 16k y swim for a couple weeks and it’s my first year attempting anything near that volume. I agree that you nailed hte pacing I also think you open marathon was likely suboptimal training and you’re a 2:40 marathoner and just don;t realize it…haha.
What’s your best 70.3 run time? 1:19? 1:20? what course? That being said, there are a few guys that just don;t slow down and run great off a IM bike. They usually ride conservatively, don’t burn matches in the swim and have good legs the whole way.
You have a good point, honestly 3:08 is still a relatively “slow” run pace. Hell, I went out on pace for a 3:00 flat the first 3 miles. Stupid, but it felt easy, just not easy enough. SO hard to mentally slow yourself down when you mostly race shorter distances. It’s like Whoa… there, I don’t have to sprint through transition.
It was something like 13 weeks of 2x20k endurance run, 1x15k with 6k tempo, 1x15k with(5x1200) vo2 intervals, 1x10k easy. Bike was only 2x1h-1h30 turbo, swim was 3x1h. I was aiming 10k PR (sub 35) in April. I barely managed it (improved whopping 10s so not really a breakthrough), and I wasted so much physical and also mental resources that the season after was meh…
I can’t say I’m better runner than I was 10 years ago - all the time around 35 for 10k and 1:18 for 1/2M, but my IM run splits improved from 4hxx thru 3:3x, 3:2x, 3:13, 3:11, to 3:08. (excluding some 4:xx and even 6:xx pacing and nutrition lessons :-)) 70.3 run splits went from 1:30-1:22.
It was something like 13 weeks of 2x20k endurance run, 1x15k with 6k tempo, 1x15k with(5x1200) vo2 intervals, 1x10k easy. Bike was only 2x1h-1h30 turbo, swim was 3x1h. I was aiming 10k PR (sub 35) in April. I barely managed it (improved whopping 10s so not really a breakthrough), and I wasted so much physical and also mental resources that the season after was meh…
I can’t say I’m better runner than I was 10 years ago - all the time around 35 for 10k and 1:18 for 1/2M, but my IM run splits improved from 4hxx thru 3:3x, 3:2x, 3:13, 3:11, to 3:08. (excluding some 4:xx and even 6:xx pacing and nutrition lessons :-)) 70.3 run splits went from 1:30-1:22.
OMG that a lot of faster running. I’d be shelled if I tried that and still wanted to bike at all. Swimming doesn’t impact my run or bike so long as I keep training load over 72 hours to < 700TSS. So you have 2 medium-longish runs, 1 medium run with tempo, and one “speed” workout… and only 1 easy run. Try this. Run 8k easy, 16k easy, 24k easy, Day off, 16k (easy or tempo/intervals), 8k easy… rinse and repeat. That’s 80k per week. The first 2 months just all easy run. For you, that’s probably 7:15 pace. Then take one of the medium runs and make it a tempo run. Then later make it VO2max intervals, but I would shorten the distance when you do. You can change the order shown, but a short run always goes between a long run.
Going 6 days, makes each day a little shorter, more manageable and easy to recover from. My no run day is usually my long bike day. Don’t put your long run the day after a long bike. Avoid putting you fast run the same day as a hard bike effort and so on. You have to spread out you workouts logically so you can recover from each adequately.
Looking at another solid runner in my age group, he also runs sub 3:10, and goes 1:19-1:22. So not that unusual what your doing, but I think you either are near your limit, or leaving some time on the table biking. Run splits always need to be taken in context with the bike split I think. If you expect to run sub 3, work on getting your open 1/2 to 1:16-1:15 and your 70.3 time to 1:20.
Maybe I am unsure about the question.
But here is an answer.
You should pace your triathlon run at the pace you would adopt for an open running race that is twice the distance of the ironman run leg.
Sprint tri- run your open 10k pace
Olympic- run your half marathon pace
70.3- run your marathon pace
140.3- run your double marathon pace
Of course who knows what ones double marathon pace would be. Using macmillans calculator.
I enter a goal time of 6:15 (7:30 min/mile) for a 50 miler
(This is my goal pace for an ironman)
The calculator then lists my PRs (+/-) for other distances.
Eerily precise.
If I subscribe it will tell me what paces to train at.
But other calculators will do this for free.