Mark Allens IM training question

Triathlon Forum
1

I am looking over the “18 weeks to IM” training program put together by Mark Allen. I was amazed at how low the intensity is for most (almost all) of the program. He mentions that the individual ceases to experience aerobic improvement from training when the heart rate goes above their maximum aerobic heart rate (MAHR). From the formula, mine is about 150 beats per minute. I would have to say that most of my training has been between 150 and 165 bpm on the run (I haven’t been monitoring for the bike and swim). Am I defeating the purpose by training “too hard” even though it does not feel too hard? Am I training to hard? Have I still been benefiting aerobically?

150 max heart rate on a run would feel incredibly pedestrian and will take alot of mental restrain. I have the mentality that if you train fast you race fast as long as you get proper recovery between workouts. If 135-150 bpm means that my run pace does not go below 8 minutes/mile (whereas I am about a 36 minute 10k’er right now), am I not training my muscles to run slow???

2

Someone very smart told me this:

Don’t believe for a second Mark Allen spent all of his time slugging along at 145-150 bpm. If you neglect your top-end speed (or atleast higher-gear speed) and train slow, guess what, you’ll end up racing slow.

I tried training with a HR monitor and keeping my HR really low for for a couple of weeks, and I only saw a small improvement. When I started running more by feel (and didn’t shuffle-run-walk the hills to keep my HR down) I saw big improvements.

Plus you need to be doing massive volume if you’re going to get any serious effect from strictly low HR training for long periods of time.

3

Adrian,

Please describe your run training in greater detail.

For Ironman racing, I think there is a lot to be said for maximizing your aerobic threshold running pace (~low Z2). In order to do this, at least some of your running ought to be at, or just above, this pace. Over time, you’ll drive your Aet pace from “pedestrian” to something faster.

If you’re not racing long-course, this discussion becomes much less meaningful and relevant.

Cheers,

Matt

4

I am not one of his trainees, but I believe he allows for speed to move off of plateaus.

Phil Mafftone’s (sp?) work with heartrate monitors is the basis of his program.

5

I think freestyle hit it on the head that if you are able to get massive low HR training you will do well in an Ironman. If you have physical recovery problems, time restraints, or just can’t take the 25hr a week that a lot of the pros do, you have to increase the intensity.

Look at the winning marathon times (around 2:50 ish for men). That is pretty slow for guys that could go mid 2:20’s. Most folks end up running 1/2 hr to 1 hr slower than a stand alone marathon PR. Figure a half hour total time,per min/mile slower running. A 3hr marathoner (7min miler) running 8-9 min miles for a 3:30-4:00 Ironman split is some pretty slow running. But if you swim 1hr ish, bike 5:30 ish, and trot thru a 3:30 marathon you are sub 10hr Ironman, which is pretty quick. I think the whole key isn’t how fast you go, it is how much you don’t slow down. I think that is the point Mark is trying to make.

6

Right now I am doing 90 km/week. All the runs are about an hour in length for every day of the week. One day is intervals (usually something like 1000m x 4 with 2 min active recovery). One day involves the last 30 minutes as fast tempo (HR about 170). The rest of the runs are HR between 155 and 165. About 3 of the runs per week involve finishing the last 1-2 km at a fast pace (referencing http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Running%20University/Article%206/progressionruns.htm ).

I am generally feeling fatigued every day but I do feel myself getting stronger and my times are coming down very gradually. I believe my body is still in a phase of adaptation to this training and I expect the really see improvement in about 2 weeks time because I am no longer adding training miles per week.

The only change in the run program I was planning for was to add more time to a weekend run and gradually build it up to 2 hours.

I am still deciding what is feasible in terms of triathlon racing this year. As a result, I have really focused on the running because if I don’t race a triathlon this year, I want to set set a PB in 10k and 5k running and set myself up nicely for next years IM training.

7

Thanks freestyle. Good points.

I come from a competitive swimming background where most days involved beating the crap out of my body during training. Then again, I was a 50m, 100m and 200m freestyle swimmer where speed was vital. Training slow is not in my nature - but if training slow gets me to the finish line faster, I certainly won’t dismiss it.

8

My concern is that there appears to be no evidence that there is a tradeoff between higher intensity work with less training time and more training time at less intensity. From what I am reading in Mark’s article is that the low stuff is absolutely necessary. There is no “if I don’t have enough training time I should focus on the higher intensity training” mentality. I bet Gordo would feel the same way. My guess is that if Gordo only had 10 hours to train a week, he would spend all of it at steady state intensity (which I imagine is about MAHR) with no high intensity work.

**I am curious if I would become faster by training slower? **Seems counterintuitive but I am keeping an open mind.

9

My guess is that if Gordo only had 10 hours to train a week, he would spend all of it at steady state intensity (which I imagine is about MAHR) with no high intensity work.

I don’t think Gordo would do tell well with that regimen.

10

It seems to me the primary purpose of HR training is to ensure you can train well the next day and not get injured. If someone can run an hour one day at a HR of 170 and still go the track the next day and do intense mile repeats at 90 percent or a 4 hour bike ride, more power to him or her.

I am just learning to train with my HR monitor, but felt I’ve always varied my pace greatly, esp. running and those great variations (9 min. pace one day; sub 6s the next) work well for me. Still, most of my training (80 percent or 8 of 10 hours a week) is at 75 percent or less (142 bpm for me); which follows conventional wisdom.

11

I started my Ironman career following Mark Allen’s program. I continue to loosely follow his approach even now. My thoughts after 3 years of this stuff ( some of this based on actual conversation with him):

Remember, this is not the program he follows per se, this is a program for the first time IM’er to get across the line and be able to spend the rest of the night with the family, not in the medical tent. If you dig up HIS actual program, the volume will make your jaw drop. He does incorporate many of his personal principles into his average guy program.

I have found that slowing down and doing the aerobic HR training has helped me substantially. Every year my aerobic HR has been dropping. I started doing 8 min miles (when I sucked it up and slowed down) and now can do low to sub-7 minute miles at the same HR’s. You must stick to it, it may take years. I don’t neglect hill workouts or speedwork, I don’t keep my HR low for those.

As someone mentioned previously, IM speeds are slow. You can’t even mention 5K or 10k, or even marathon training in the same paragraph with IM training. They are completely seperate approches. A good IM that runs a fast 10K does it on overall fitness and toughness, not legspeed. Good IM’ers have the best developed aerobic system possible, much of this training will make you slower at the other races that favor a better anaerobic system and ft muscle fibers.

If your approach to IM is long term, that is, you’d like to do a few of 'em and get better year after year, follow the Mark Allen protocol and add volume if you have the time and as your body can take it. If you want to do just one and finish alive, just do some higher volume for a few months in all three sports and give it your best shot.

12

155-165 might be too high. I don’t usually run with a HR monitor, but when I do (if I want to track improvement) I usually run my aerobic runs in the 155-170 bpm range, and I’m 16 and my LTHR is relatively high (in the 190’s).

If you’re gonna run long you’re going to have cardiac drift (your HR will rise during the run and you’ll keep going at the same pace), but the key to good runs is to negative split them, so I would say start lower than your intended HR, and finish a bit above it feeling strong.

13

Adrian

What I think Mark Allen is trying to get across is that once you figure out your personal MAHR…train at "your"AeT levels(i.e,Friels Z2) so as to teach your body to burn fat as its main fuel for X# of weeks(for me thats 12-15 weeks).
Once the build is solid, then you can incorporate your Tempo,Striders and Repeats.

I’ve done this for the last 3 seasons and have had sucess with it in all 3 disciplines.
And I agree…that if all you do is LSD …then you will end up racing at an LSD pace…but, if you get in the speedwork…for me I do 2 days a week at the 14 week mark for 3 weeks you get the speed increase.
This has kept me injury free,and most importantly allowed me to do the high volume required.

During base build I keep my HR at an easy 140bpms(25-30 hrs wk)…at first it took some getting use to, but, once I stuck it out I couldn’t believe how strong I got,and how well I could hold pace once the speedwork started as compared to when I first started doing only 4-5 weeks build at faster paces.

When I first heard Peter Reid speak he also talked about how he trained this way.
Allen is his coach.

Consistency is everything.
Holding your Bpm’s comfortably for 11+ hours is the key.

If you can sustain your 150-165 for that period of time then you’re there…if not…slow down and build your engine for that long day in the office.

Mark Allens idea of low intensity is HIS personal indicator, mine and yours will differ, but, his point is still the same.
He always talks about that “switch” you never want to turn on too early( or you’ll hit the proverbial Wall ! )…burn the fat as its the most abundant source in our bodies…leave the precious carbs as your reserve.

It is also the only safe way to build your Neuromuscular -Neuroskeletal system, joints and ligaments for IM distances.

This is only my humble interpretation of training for IM.

Between Mark Allens recommendations and Gordo’s 4 Pillars I’ve been pretty happy.

Fish

14

Did you say 25-30 hours a week?

Of course you’re going to get a good training effect if you’re training that much, but if you train less you can’t train all LSD or else you won’t get the necessary effects and you won’t get a lot faster either.

15

Thanks Sword and everyone else for your responses.

Another issue is that I don’t think I want to be doing IM for more than the next 4 years. I would like to get involved with some other sports. The question for me is how do I become as fast as possible when my last IM race year may be 2006. I don’t really want to experiment because there is not the time for it.

I am not one to get injured easily - my body seems to be able to take the punishment. The way I have been approaching training is by looking at it like a rubber band. I try to stretch it as far as I can and allow it is spring back so I can stretch it again. This does not seem to be the Mark Allen training guide approach. Under his plan I would feel undertaxed physically.

16

Freestyle-

Yup!

I’ve committed to some IM goal times for the next 2 years…so while I’m healthy …why not.
I’m fortunate enough to be my own boss…so I usually train 6 days a week.

Its really the only safe way to get an IM PR.

In the past years I’d always get injured trying to do the distances with limited training volume.

I just wish I started at an earlier age.
I’m in the 40-45 Mens AG…man if I only started in my 20’s :slight_smile:

And you’re right…gotta get the Vo2Max work in there.

Adrian-

Not sure if one can do an IM distance w/o the required hi volume training.
Personally, I have not met anyone who has been able to.

17

Just cause you are at MAHR, does not mean that you are going slow all the time. I’ve run a 2:55 marathon on zero intervals and following the Maffetone approach. The key was to do downhill running quickly to work everything that you would do at speed. It is not a huge stretch then to run at race pace, when all your downhills are faster than race pace.

18

Yeah I love running on moderate downhills. Running 3:45/k at 170 bpm… if only I could do that on the flats… A high leg turnover is the key I think…

19

Just keep cross-training.And after your last IM…recover for 2 mos…eat some ice cream,drink some beer…then start again,but with speed as your focus.

Sounds like you’re young enough to spread the wealth so to speak( green w/ envy here !).

As long as your Mitochondreas are pumping hard, and you get a Hemocrit test that reflects a hi RBC count…hammer on!

“I feel a need for SPEED” Tom Cruise

20

Just keep cross-training.And after your last IM…recover for 2 mos…eat some ice cream,drink some beer…then start again,but with speed as your focus.

Sounds like you’re young enough to spread the wealth so to speak( green w/ envy here !).

As long as your Mitochondreas are pumping hard, and you get a Hemocrit test that reflects a hi RBC count…hammer on!

“I feel a need for SPEED” Tom Cruise
That is the advice I have been waiting for. Why can’t any of these training programs include this in the routine?