Has anyone seen the program laid out in runners world (aug. 05). It has a 3 day run week-one interval/track session, one tempo, one long run-with cross training mixed in. I am planning my first marathon in dec. Anyone with comments/criticisms, etc.?
In the intro, they mention that the program was originally conceived by people trying to fit in marathon training w/ triathlon, so when they say cross training, I would imagine it would be bike heavy, but that’s just my guess.
I did my only marathon on less than traditional training. I was a 1/4 miler in college and on a whim decided to do a marathon. My longest run ever before actual marathon was in the neighborhood of 10-12 miles. I ran a 3:17. Faster than some, slower than others.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but it can be done.
That said, I plan on using it for my IM training for LP next year. Considering my background and goals, it should be adequate, but I don’t expect to be winning anything.
Starting next week I’ll be part of a follow-up study to the one the RW article was based on. So I’ll be able to tell you by December whether it worked for me.
The idea, as I understand it, is that you can successfully prep for a marathon by doing only 3 quality runs per week, and get your aerobic training from cross-training without all the impact of 5-6 runs per week. I was going to focus on my run for the fall, so this works out well for me. I am only aiming to finish the marathon, having never run a race longer than 10 km previously, and not terribly quickly. So I’m sure I’ll show improvement. The controversial part, I guess, is whether a fast runner can stay fast or get faster on this plan.
You can check the web site http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm of the group at Furman University who conducts these studies / training programs. They have training plans more detailed than the one in the RW article, along with a Q&A section.
The first thing you need to understand about any training program you see in Runner’s World is you need to think about who that training program is written for. I have not seen a RW reader profile in a Media Kit for a few years, but I suspect that a huge percentage of the over 1/2 million subscibers are still busy business managers/executives with busy home/social lives and the type of training prgram that will appeal to this crowd is a bare-bones, less-is-more type of program. It will work, and it does work for many people just getting into running, but what many find is that they plateau at that level and then never really improve. What works beyond this point - First increaseing running frequency to 5 - 6 days/week, then slowly increase volume. Running only three times a week is not enough overload to really cause big, sustainable increases in run fitness.
Fleck
Currently in week five (four?) of the program for a marathon Halloween weekend. I was drawn to the program as I could still train for triathlon.
My initial observations are that it is hard. I am not used to running all my runs at the pace they prescribe. I have had not problems with the long run or tempo run pace, but I have had difficulty maintaining the pace for the speed workouts.
I am so looking forward to doing 10 * 400 today on 75s - especially after a 100 repeats in the pool this morning at 6am.
When I have a road race or tri on the weekend I may back off on the pace for the tempo run and count the event as the long run.
Since 1999, I’ve run 7 marathons and never run more than 4 days a week or 45 miles in a week. When I started, I weighed considerably more than now, and I knew my legs could not take the pounding of running 5 days a week. So, I figured I was a lot better off doing things like runnning up to 8 miles two times a week, do long run of up to 20 once a week, and then do the occasional shorter run and cross training instead of trying to do a more traditional plan. Now, I also did no speedwork at all until a couple years ago so my training was different from the RW plan.
There are some real limitations on how fast you are going to go in a marathon training this few days a week so my plan for this year’s marathon is to run 5 days a week and up to 55 miles per week. But, if your primary goal is to finish a marathon and not get hurt, you can get enough mileage and long runs in running 3 or 4 days per week. Eventually, as your body adapts to running more mileage, you will be able to run more and to run faster in training and your marathon results will improve too. But, starting slowly is a lot better idea, IMO, than jumping into a 50 to 70 mpw plan with little running background, which is just about guaranteed to get you hurt.
My initial observations are that it is hard. I am not used to running all my runs at the pace they prescribe. I have had not problems with the long run or tempo run pace, but I have had difficulty maintaining the pace for the speed workouts.
The interval paces are almost impossible unless the athlete is an extremely soft racer (aka, workout king/queen).
For example: Take a runner with a 40min time for 10k (6:26 min/mile; 96.5 seconds per quarter). On Daniels’ VDOT chart, a 40min 10k runner should be able to race a mile in about 5:40. In week ONE of this Runners world program, this runner is supposed to run 12 x 400 in 81.5 seconds (5:26 mile pace). We are looking at close to three miles of quarters at almost about fifteen seconds per mile faster than all out mile pace! 12 x 400 at 3k/2mile race pace is rough enough, and here we have a program telling aspiring marathoners running three days a week to run 400m at close to 800m race pace twelve times on relatively short rest in the very first week of their program. In week three of the program, the workout calls for this runner to run 6 x 800m (almost 5k worth of work) at 5:36 mile pace, which is around 17:30 for a 5k race. A 40min 10k runner would normally race 5k in approximately 19:30 (see Daniels). Think about how it would feel to come through the half mile split of a 5k race having misjudged your pace by 40 seconds per mile (6:16 versus 5:36). Take 90 seconds rest and repeat five more times. That is your week three workout.
The times are even more absurd when you look at the faster end of the scale, though I realize the plan was probably not intended for faster runners who have run with the necessary frequency to acheive their racing fitness. A faster guy like Fleck (back in his prime; ~15:00 for 5k, ~30-31 for 10k) would have been told to run 12 x 400m in close to 60 seconds (approximately 4:00 mile pace), eighteen weeks before a goal marathon. I think Fleck would confirm that three miles of quarters at four flat pace with relatively short rest would have been extreme at this point in time for marathon training.
There is definitely some value in trying to get “more out of less” (especially for triathletes) by cutting out some filler miles and focusing on key sessions, but I think the paces listed in this program have gone overboard and should not be taken literally.
You made my day . . . and but my mind at ease about the issue. The speed workouts are indeed faster than I can usually muster; although I almost held on to the target pace of 75 today (10 * 400) at lunch. I tell you because no one else gives a shit - you likely don’t either : )
when i ran marathons i followed the plans mapped out in the new york runner’s book. it was good, i thought. started with the novice and worked up to intermediate and so on.
are you trying to train for tri as well as marathon?
I’m coaching a marathon clinic for the 30 Oct Frankfurt marathon using the Daniels’ Running Formula schedule guidelines. A runner with a VDOT of 52 (the previous poster example) would be looking at about a 3:04 marathon. Daniels’ schedule does not have very many workouts in 24 weeks with any intensity greater than a 6:38 pace (for a runner with a VDOT of 52). The highest intensity workouts have a pace of 1:31 per 400 meters. Those track workouts you describe would correlate, using Daniels VDOT, to a runner with a best mile time of 4:57 and looking at a marathon of 2:43. And I’m not sure what benefit such a high intensity track workout at this point is doing for a “typical” triathlete (assuming non-elite marathon runner here). I would always go by the thumbrule that you stop the workout at the point where you could do “one more” rep but really really don’t want to… it’s marathon training after all – not 5 or 10K!
I have thought many times about starting a thread similar to this - as I too have many questions about the program.
I think that the program is supposed to simulate the effort/pace at which one will run the marathon. But my biggest issue is the lack of milage. Regardless, with heavy tri training through the middle of September, I really do not know what more I could do, or what my body (or family) would put up with.
I don’t know what a VDOT is, but my goal is anything better than BQ for my age (3:10 or 3:15) and my predicted time is south of 3:00. But really my goal is to see how my body reacts as I want to step up to 1/2 and IM distances in the near future.
It’s just an experiment, but I would rather not get injured.
I think it’s ridiculous. Anyone seriously good enough to do all the workouts at the paces written would want to run a lot more than 3x a week.
I like Pfitzinger/Douglas marathon plans 
I have been following the plan in prep for Chicago and I personally like it. Three days a week works well with my schedule (training for triathlon and sharing training time with my triathlete husband, OH and time for our 2 children). Running is not my strongest area, but I don’t find the paces or schedule unreasonable at all. The 12x400’s went well this morning. I think the plan puts a focus on QUALITY workouts (both running and cross training) which are beneficial in preventing injury and boredom plus hopefully result in a positive finish time.
:-)Christine
This plan is very similar to my run training through the '90s and even closer to what I do now. I typically do 3 days/wk. as follows: One Long run (all aerobic, Z2 max in Base; build 2nd half of run to goal pace in Build; race pace or near race pace in the season); One Tempo (slightly slower than 10K pace); and either One Speed Workout (track or fartlek) OR One Hill workout. Almost no junk miles whatsoever, except for the occasional recreational run. This formula has been working very well for me, as I continue to set PR’s into my late 30s at every distance.
Is it for everybody? I don’t know, but I sure like it. As far as the pacing goes in the RW article, it seems pretty reasonable to me. I think that a lot of folks that are frustrated with their lack of progression in running could use more high intensity, “fast legs” type of running; within reason of course. One of my old track coaches used to say “If you want to race fast, you have to train fast.” Over the years, I’ve come to translate this into ‘you have to learn to move your legs faster in order to get faster.’ I think that the only way to do that is to do some running much faster than your goal pace. The added benefit is that goal pace actually feels slow (relatively).
Take this for what it’s worth, but I think that there is some merit to the plan. It may have to be tweaked for experience level, etc.
-Jeff
PS: Nice Floyd blurb… takes me back to my 8 track days.
I can’t remember his name, but there is an ultra-running dude that only runs once per week. I think he does like a 20-30 miler (off-road) every weekend and has been training like that for years.
Jeff - thanks for the post. And great job at Steehead. Your post makes a lot of sense and gives me hope in this my sophmore year of tri that I can still continue to improve. And you’re a real stud if you can hold all the prescribed paces in all the “First” speed workouts for a marathon. Me, I would much rather do a 5 mi tempo run at 6:20 pace than try to hold 6 * 800 on 2:40.
I haven’t seen the RW program, but I did my first marathon last year on a 3-day/week schedule: Sat. long run, Tues. Track run (intervals), Thurs. trail run (5-8 miles). The only cross-training was an easy, short recovery bike ride on Sundays. I met my goal of breaking 4 hours.
If you want to try a less-mileage plan, just keep an eye on your long run times. If you’re meeting your min/mile goal, you should be good. If you don’t feel confident after your long runs, maybe think about a different plan.
Sounds a lot like Gale Bernhardt’s 13 week ironman plan…
“Take a runner with a 40min time for 10k… In week ONE of this Runners world program, this runner is supposed to run 12 x 400 in 81.5 seconds (5:26 mile pace).”
The program is demanding, but you’re exaggerating somewhat. The actual program calls for 8 repetitions in the first week, not 12. Also, a range of paces is provided, from 82.8-81.5 sec per 400M (you only took the fast end of the range).