Marathon Investigations Accuses Ashley Paulson

Ya, I dont blame Derek one iota for his death, he was just doing his job and policing a running race. To me the lion share of the blame besides Frank himself, were his family and friends. They kept the whole charade going in the face of overwhelming evidence that he cheated, and no doubt pushed him to continue on with his denials. If they had at least accepted the plain facts, and then counseled and consoled Frank, there might of been a different outcome.

Derek only caught a guy who cheated to beat a world record, what came after was all on Frank and his family and how they handled the outing…

Agreed. Ironically indicative of so many societal woes.

The family cried foul without every looking at the evidence because it was inconceivable that he would cheat.

Anyone who posted evidence that he clearly had repeatedly cheated and would be an AG World Record Holder was a “cyber bully.”

Delusions and reality eventually collide. Let’s blame reality.

I wonder how many of you have read Derek’s posts? He never actually accuses her, just says she has a history and that there are some oddities in the data. Supposedly riding in the van would be the common way participants cheated in the past, is it crazy to think a participant could sit in the van and truck along at 5:40 miles?

Those hoax records where it takes a team to fake are next level. When its a guy cutting corners or cheating you can imagine someone is that driven, desperate or deceitful. But when youre a cheating supporter (driving the van at running speed while your guy sleeps in the back etc) whats the point? You’re cheating others with a clear mind and no gain. Is it actually less about dark and sinister personality issues and more flippant like having a good loch ness monster yarn to tell?

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

True. And if I remember correctly there weren’t any real evidence against Frank to begin with.

An old person on a bike with a race bib and some similarities to Frank, sure, but nothing that would hold up in a court of law.

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

True. And if I remember correctly there weren’t any real evidence against Frank to begin with.

An old person on a bike with a race bib and some similarities to Frank, sure, but nothing that would hold up in a court of law.

That’s just utterly and completely false.

Complain about people calling out cheaters if you want, which i think it’s dumb as I appreciate someone looking out for the integrity of sports, but to not think the evidence was clear and plentiful here mean’s you just weren’t paying any attention at all.

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

This is a fantastically terrible take. The job of a journalist is to investigate stories. Were Woodward and Bernstein in the wrong for exposing Nixon? Did the initial accusation of bin Salman killing Kashoggi warrant a shut down of those websites? What about this entire forum jumping onto Kaitlin Armstrong for the murder of Mo Wilson? Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

This is a fantastically terrible take. The job of a journalist is to investigate stories. Were Woodward and Bernstein in the wrong for exposing Nixon? Did the initial accusation of bin Salman killing Kashoggi warrant a shut down of those websites? What about this entire forum jumping onto Kaitlin Armstrong for the murder of Mo Wilson? Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

I’ve been following this thread and there are two things I can take away from it:

  • MI (Derek) doesn’t have a very convicing case, and as of now it seems Ashley did do the full race.
  • TheStroBro really hates Derek and is very personally invested in this. Is there something more there?

This is a fantastically terrible take. The job of a journalist is to investigate stories. Were Woodward and Bernstein in the wrong for exposing Nixon? Did the initial accusation of bin Salman killing Kashoggi warrant a shut down of those websites? What about this entire forum jumping onto Kaitlin Armstrong for the murder of Mo Wilson? Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

Why are you comparing this to Watergate? This isn’t close to Watergate and definitely not close to Kashoggi. In regards to Kaitlin Armstrong, that’s an alleged murder, not comparable.

I’ve been following this thread and there are two things I can take away from it:

  • MI (Derek) doesn’t have a very convicing case, and as of now it seems Ashley did do the full race.
  • TheStroBro really hates Derek and is very personally invested in this. Is there something more there?

Hate is a bit too strong. Not even sure I dislike him. I just dislike his hobby, this is his hobby, not his job. He has a real job. Especially after the Frank Meza experience where we didn’t see these threads on this forum I thought we as a community moved on a bit, but I guess not when you have one of the leaders in this community cheering on this nonsense.

This is a fantastically terrible take. The job of a journalist is to investigate stories. Were Woodward and Bernstein in the wrong for exposing Nixon? Did the initial accusation of bin Salman killing Kashoggi warrant a shut down of those websites? What about this entire forum jumping onto Kaitlin Armstrong for the murder of Mo Wilson? Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

Why are you comparing this to Watergate? This isn’t close to Watergate and definitely not close to Kashoggi. In regards to Kaitlin Armstrong, that’s an alleged murder, not comparable.

I’ve been following this thread and there are two things I can take away from it:

  • MI (Derek) doesn’t have a very convicing case, and as of now it seems Ashley did do the full race.
  • TheStroBro really hates Derek and is very personally invested in this. Is there something more there?

Hate is a bit too strong. Not even sure I dislike him. I just dislike his hobby, this is his hobby, not his job. He has a real job. Especially after the Frank Meza experience where we didn’t see these threads on this forum I thought we as a community moved on a bit, but I guess not when you have one of the leaders in this community cheering on this nonsense.

Who gets to decide what’s comparable? You? Different things are important to different people. Not unreasonable to think a competitive runner would care more about someone cheating their way to a win than they would care about the president or a murder of someone unknown to them. It’s not about what you personally think is important, it’s about what anybody thinks is important.

What “closing” data are you looking at?

Marathon investigation article linked to the first post has a couple time splits for final section compared to other runners. And she is running faster/as fast as some big names with much faster 100 mile times. Im assuming the table/times are accurate from MIs report.

Right, I figured.

#1 When you said a couple of posts up that only Oswaldo has ever recorded a faster split than her ,that’s from Derek about the last 3.9 miles. But I think he and you mean Jorge Pacheco. Paulson was 3 minutes faster than Lopez’ best time over that section. Derek’s article was sloppy, this is just one example.

#2 The bigger issue (which I’ve flagged a few times in this thread and which Derek has belatedly acknowledged in a clean up edit to his post), is that this data is not a complete list of the fastest splits over this section. It’s a list of splits from the fastest overall finishers (at least, I that’s what I think it is - Camille Herron put them together and I don’t know for sure what her metrics were). So, for example, the data doesn’t include a 50(!) minute split recorded by Jen Vogel in 2011 - another female pro triathlete Badwater debutant who just did astonishingly well at the end. No-one’s disputing Paulson’s splits were incredible and for most people it would make sense that stronger runners finish stronger but I can see many reasons why there might be exceptions to that rule, especially at a race like Badwater and especially when some of these splits are recorded at night and some during the day (Paulson’s was at night).

Weird stuff happens for sure, just be careful putting any faith in Derek’s ability to assess the weirdness in this case.

Also, I would add that a strong finish from a woman (relative to previous male competitors) would be entirely expected from a female runner. Women tend to start slower and more conservatively and save power for the end. Men start out more aggressively and slow down more. A woman breaking mens records at the end of the race (with a relatively slower start) would be completely the way an elite female runner would approach an ultra distance race.

https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0008

About a year ago I saw an article about Yiannis Kouros which started out about his first major win and how most people thought he had cheated because the time was so unbelievable.

The thing I remember most about Yiannis’s Badwater debut was not how fast we was, but how loud that asshole on his crew was, screaming “Go, Yiannis! Go dude!!! My man!!! You got this!!!” the whole fucking time

NOTE: I wasn’t there, but watched it on YouTube sometime afterwards

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

This is a fantastically terrible take. The job of a journalist is to investigate stories. Were Woodward and Bernstein in the wrong for exposing Nixon? Did the initial accusation of bin Salman killing Kashoggi warrant a shut down of those websites? What about this entire forum jumping onto Kaitlin Armstrong for the murder of Mo Wilson? Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

I’ve been following this thread and there are two things I can take away from it:

  • MI (Derek) doesn’t have a very convicing case, and as of now it seems Ashley did do the full race.

  • TheStroBro really hates Derek and is very personally invested in this. Is there something more there?

  • Nothing quite gets the hackles up here more than someone cheating (allegedly).

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

True. And if I remember correctly there weren’t any real evidence against Frank to begin with.

An old person on a bike with a race bib and some similarities to Frank, sure, but nothing that would hold up in a court of law.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I participated in the effort to prove that Frank Meza was a habitual cheater and I would like to add a few points.

Meza was caught cheating twice in the California International Marathon and was banned for life.

Meza’s performance in L.A. in 2015 was questioned by the race organizers. They asked him to run with an observer in the future, but apparently never enforced that request.

In 2019, when Meza ran faster than Ed Whitlock had in the 70-74 age group, the effort to prove that he cheated was on. Even people like Amby Burfoot (Boston Marathon winner and long-time editor of Runner’s World were questioning the performance. He would later write an article posted on Derek’s site saying it was time for Meza to prove his ability by running a monitored race.

Meza responded with denials, accusations, and threats. He enlisted the help of other coaches and a deputy district attorney to help paint himself as a victim and the accusers as a mob of internet bullies.

His response was almost taunting, in a strange way. I recall feeling like it was a game of “catch me if you can.”

When photos of him leaving the course were found, he claimed he had left the course to find a bathroom and re-entered the course at the same place (while setting a world record). Similar photos were found from several of his races.

Photos from other races showed him entering and leaving the courses, stretching along the side of the road (to re-enter undetected) and even running along the course in the wrong direction.

When the photo of him riding a bicycle was discovered ( https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/frank-meza-marathon/ ), it was over.

Meza held a prominent position in the medical community and his blatant dishonesty was likely going to be a problem for him professionally.

While Derek gets much of the credit (or blame) for catching Meza, it was largely the crowdsourced effort that found the smoking gun photos.

The L.A. Marathon reversed its decision and disqualified him.

Then media outlets like Inside Edition and the L.A. Times, and local nightly news journalists started knocking on his door. Good Morning America mocked him. People magazine ran a story on his disqualification. He was asked to not return to his coaching position.

Then he took his own life.

Was this a tragedy? Yes.

Would I blame Derek for it? No, once the thread started on LetsRun he was going to be caught. Why blame him any more than the media outlets that ran with the story after it was proven that he was a cheat?

Should we stop trying to catch cheaters because of this incident? No.

I spent a few minutes this morning reading more about Ashley Paulson.

I think this story becomes more compelling when we look deeper than the simple fact that she has two strikes against her.

Generally, I subscribe to “where there’s smoke there’s fire.” And, I think there is something in her splits, which really magnifies the general paradigm that either she cheated or she should be celebrated as putting up Badwater’s greatest performance ever.

Is WADA off track with too high of a standard for doping? Would sport be better served with a more definitive standard that wouldn’t need to be appealed for ‘trace’ quantities that could be accidentally ingested?

If events like Badwater are going to attract mainstream attention and this amount of controversy does the race organization owe the participant a greater effort to monitor for cheating? Especially an organization that seems to be widely criticized for extreme profiteering?

One thing that seems clear, ultras have outgrown any adolescents and greater sentiment that they can rely on an honor system. No matter the result of this race it’s clear that the community does not consider Paulson honorable enough to count on her testimony alone that she won the race.

Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

Come on now. The evidence against Kaitlin is immense and formally documented by professionals.

The evidence against Ashley is incredibly thin. We have apparently no idea how she might have cheated, if she did. That’s kind of a problem. Where with Kaitlin we have a pretty darn good evidence. Motive, weapon, statements, direct evidence of physical location. And she’s been formally indicted.

This is a ridiculous comparison.

Hasn’t been proven yet, maybe we need to shut down this website too?

Come on now. The evidence against Kaitlin is immense and formally documented by professionals.

The evidence against Ashley is incredibly thin. We have apparently no idea how she might have cheated, if she did. That’s kind of a problem. Where with Kaitlin we have a pretty darn good evidence. Motive, weapon, statements, direct evidence of physical location. And she’s been formally indicted.

This is a ridiculous comparison.

Correct, but when the thread first started the evidence was largely circumstantial. My point is if we’re going to investigate/speculate on people’s misdeeds then eventually we’ll run across one that some people disagree with. To say Derek’s website needs to be shut down because you ‘disagree with what they look into’ is a blanket standard that allows you to shut down anything. Alternatively, you can leave it open and if the speculation/investigation is thin enough then nobody will be interested. I can start threads about Kipchoge having suspect times, but no one will care because it’s so obviously untrue. There’s a reason this thread has 150 posts.

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

True. And if I remember correctly there weren’t any real evidence against Frank to begin with.

An old person on a bike with a race bib and some similarities to Frank, sure, but nothing that would hold up in a court of law.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I participated in the effort to prove that Frank Meza was a habitual cheater and I would like to add a few points.

Meza was caught cheating twice in the California International Marathon and was banned for life.

Meza’s performance in L.A. in 2015 was questioned by the race organizers. They asked him to run with an observer in the future, but apparently never enforced that request.

In 2019, when Meza ran faster than Ed Whitlock had in the 70-74 age group, the effort to prove that he cheated was on. Even people like Amby Burfoot (Boston Marathon winner and long-time editor of Runner’s World were questioning the performance. He would later write an article posted on Derek’s site saying it was time for Meza to prove his ability by running a monitored race.

Meza responded with denials, accusations, and threats. He enlisted the help of other coaches and a deputy district attorney to help paint himself as a victim and the accusers as a mob of internet bullies.

His response was almost taunting, in a strange way. I recall feeling like it was a game of “catch me if you can.”

When photos of him leaving the course were found, he claimed he had left the course to find a bathroom and re-entered the course at the same place (while setting a world record). Similar photos were found from several of his races.

Photos from other races showed him entering and leaving the courses, stretching along the side of the road (to re-enter undetected) and even running along the course in the wrong direction.

When the photo of him riding a bicycle was discovered ( https://www.lamag.com/...frank-meza-marathon/ ), it was over.

Meza held a prominent position in the medical community and his blatant dishonesty was likely going to be a problem for him professionally.

While Derek gets much of the credit (or blame) for catching Meza, it was largely the crowdsourced effort that found the smoking gun photos.

The L.A. Marathon reversed its decision and disqualified him.

Then media outlets like Inside Edition and the L.A. Times, and local nightly news journalists started knocking on his door. Good Morning America mocked him. People magazine ran a story on his disqualification. He was asked to not return to his coaching position.

Then he took his own life.

Was this a tragedy? Yes.

Would I blame Derek for it? No, once the thread started on LetsRun he was going to be caught. Why blame him any more than the media outlets that ran with the story after it was proven that he was a cheat?

Should we stop trying to catch cheaters because of this incident? No.

I also participated materially in the Meza thread. I’m prepared to wrestle with my culpability. Derek and you are not. The fact a bad outcome may have been inevitable doesn’t excuse anyone’s responsibility for contributing to it. Reasonable people can differ on how much responsibility you, me or Derek may bear, but we bear some. I’m not prepared to sign off on a blanket statement like “we should stop trying to catch cheaters because of this incident” but I full support “we should think very carefully about inciting 10,000 post mostly-uninformed internet investigations into people who might be cheats no matter how annoying we find their conduct.”

Imagine an alternate scenario where Derek spoke to Camille, did real journalistic legwork and spent as long as it took to fully source all his allegations before going public. He wouldn’t have had the benefit of the internet mob working for him but them’s the breaks. Then he goes to the RD and publishes one of two articles “Here’s conclusive proof Ashley Paulson cheated and the RD didn’t do anything” OR “Ashley Paulson was just been DQd from BAdwater and here’s the investigation that convinced the RD.” This would have been over within 48 hours, the psychological impact on the individuals involved, guilty or otherwise, would have been minimal and Derek’s actions would have been beyond reproach. It boggles my mind that he’s still going a different route.

but if i was her and my finish was legit id sign up for an ultra with a truly competitive womens field and validate the Badwater result.

This is the approach I might have taken if I were Derek. Mark her down as a “person of interest” Maybe privately ask her for GPS data. And then keep an eye on her in future events, maybe getting some insider contacts to put some extra game-day scrutiny on her.

Build up a body of work. Play the long game.

Instead he went immediately public.

It has been mentioned before but here it goes, Derek may have intentionally jumped the gun trying to flush out more evidence. A calculated risk of eating crow to try and protect the integrity of the event.

I equate those of you that blame Derek for the suicide to a patient that blames the doctor for diagnosing him with cancer. Let’s not forget that there was free will and premeditation to act deviant to society. A choice to avoid the consequences and end ones life is the afflicted’s own alone.

No, he chose to commit journalistic malpractice here for what I don’t know. Kiss up to some pro athlete he’s fond of. He willfully chose to invade someone’s life without any evidence whatsoever, heck most of the people he goes after should have their results DQd but should never have to suffer him going after them. You spoke about choice, well Derek needs to shut down that facebook page and website. If you don’t think him diving into Frank Meza’s life had an impact on that man which pushed him to those choices, then you’re not doing the math right. Frank still made a choice, but Derek directly contributed to that choice.

True. And if I remember correctly there weren’t any real evidence against Frank to begin with.

An old person on a bike with a race bib and some similarities to Frank, sure, but nothing that would hold up in a court of law.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I participated in the effort to prove that Frank Meza was a habitual cheater and I would like to add a few points.

Meza was caught cheating twice in the California International Marathon and was banned for life.

Meza’s performance in L.A. in 2015 was questioned by the race organizers. They asked him to run with an observer in the future, but apparently never enforced that request.

In 2019, when Meza ran faster than Ed Whitlock had in the 70-74 age group, the effort to prove that he cheated was on. Even people like Amby Burfoot (Boston Marathon winner and long-time editor of Runner’s World were questioning the performance. He would later write an article posted on Derek’s site saying it was time for Meza to prove his ability by running a monitored race.

Meza responded with denials, accusations, and threats. He enlisted the help of other coaches and a deputy district attorney to help paint himself as a victim and the accusers as a mob of internet bullies.

His response was almost taunting, in a strange way. I recall feeling like it was a game of “catch me if you can.”

When photos of him leaving the course were found, he claimed he had left the course to find a bathroom and re-entered the course at the same place (while setting a world record). Similar photos were found from several of his races.

Photos from other races showed him entering and leaving the courses, stretching along the side of the road (to re-enter undetected) and even running along the course in the wrong direction.

When the photo of him riding a bicycle was discovered ( https://www.lamag.com/...frank-meza-marathon/ ), it was over.

Meza held a prominent position in the medical community and his blatant dishonesty was likely going to be a problem for him professionally.

While Derek gets much of the credit (or blame) for catching Meza, it was largely the crowdsourced effort that found the smoking gun photos.

The L.A. Marathon reversed its decision and disqualified him.

Then media outlets like Inside Edition and the L.A. Times, and local nightly news journalists started knocking on his door. Good Morning America mocked him. People magazine ran a story on his disqualification. He was asked to not return to his coaching position.

Then he took his own life.

Was this a tragedy? Yes.

Would I blame Derek for it? No, once the thread started on LetsRun he was going to be caught. Why blame him any more than the media outlets that ran with the story after it was proven that he was a cheat?

Should we stop trying to catch cheaters because of this incident? No.

I also participated materially in the Meza thread. I’m prepared to wrestle with my culpability. Derek and you are not. The fact a bad outcome may have been inevitable doesn’t excuse anyone’s responsibility for contributing to it. Reasonable people can differ on how much responsibility you, me or Derek may bear, but we bear some. I’m not prepared to sign off on a blanket statement like “we should stop trying to catch cheaters because of this incident” but I full support “we should think very carefully about inciting 10,000 post mostly-uninformed internet investigations into people who might be cheats no matter how annoying we find their conduct.”

Imagine an alternate scenario where Derek spoke to Camille, did real journalistic legwork and spent as long as it took to fully source all his allegations before going public. He wouldn’t have had the benefit of the internet mob working for him but them’s the breaks. Then he goes to the RD and publishes one of two articles “Here’s conclusive proof Ashley Paulson cheated and the RD didn’t do anything” OR “Ashley Paulson was just been DQd from BAdwater and here’s the investigation that convinced the RD.” This would have been over within 48 hours, the psychological impact on the individuals involved, guilty or otherwise, would have been minimal and Derek’s actions would have been beyond reproach. It boggles my mind that he’s still going a different route.

So does this mean that ANYONE “ratting” anyone else out is now culpable and responsible for whatever happens after to that person? That’s ridiculous. So if I were to write an article in my spare time that ends of taking down a CEO of a company and that CEO goes on a shooting rampage and kills a bunch of people, I would be responsible/should feel guilty?
He can do whatever he wants in his spare time. If it ends up maliciously smearing someone and they can prove he was wrong, there are tonne of outlets at their disposal to solve that. His investigation wasn’t malicious in any way (imo).

So does this mean that ANYONE “ratting” anyone else out is now culpable and responsible for whatever happens after to that person? That’s ridiculous. So if I were to write an article in my spare time that ends of taking down a CEO of a company and that CEO goes on a shooting rampage and kills a bunch of people, I would be responsible/should feel guilty?
He can do whatever he wants in his spare time. If it ends up maliciously smearing someone and they can prove he was wrong, there are tonne of outlets at their disposal to solve that. His investigation wasn’t malicious in any way (imo).

Weirdly specific example but no. If you do the work and produce a valuable and well-sourced article that forces a CEO to step-down because he or she loses the confidence of his or her company’s stakeholders that’s fine, you’ve done a service. If they go on a shooting rampage you might reasonably conclude you did nothing wrong.

But if you suspect some malfeasance by a CEO and can’t prove it, or you hear some rumors about a CEO from someone you think is cool and has a stature that you envy, and then you turn to the internet for help, convincing some people to search through thousands of photos to find the evidence you couldn’t while simultaneously convincing others to investigate his or her family members, to call his or her employer, to call his or her licensing board (I think I remember that), if you post multiple articles, create multiple threads, weigh in personally on dozens of social media comments and generally stoke such a firestorm that your target snaps? Well, in any legal sense you’re almost certainly still not responsible. But I would hope that you would consider acting differently next time. And no, using a website and audience built on exposing cheats to write a highly suggestive but still facially neutral “people are saying” piece does not qualify as acting differently.

However, MI admits on the record that MI is “ unable to present definitive evidence to say either Ashley cheated, or that Ashley’s result is legitimate“. If that’s the case, MI’s public prosecution isn’t ready for prime time, and the wiser course of action would have been not publishing this. //

I think MI and most the rest of us know what happened, or at least something fishy happened. You are reading way too much into his soft sell, and this will help him collect more evidence from others that were there and witnesses. When I see some non elite woman beat the best men in the world(last two substantial splits) I really don’t need much more than that. Forget about her history, it just is one of those impossibilities. Like if you saw some top AG woman outsplit Kristian B in the run of an ironman(which he won of course). It just is not possible, just have a look at that list of top men runners over the years that put up incredible times for that section, and then with a straight face tell me that it was possible for her to out run them…

This reminds me a LC worlds. I’m sure it was a long time ago at this point in Oklahoma, where there was that girl from NZ, I think, who claimed she just had a really good swim, while subsequently beating every male pro there on the swim. Then a bunch of people arguing that it wasn’t proof… okie dokie guys sure.

Anyone besides me thinks it would be a compliment to turn in such a great performance that it would need to be investigated? I would have no problem at all providing proof if I did.