I have been using PC’s for over a year. I have tried to do as much of my riding as possible on them including low key races and time trials. I am racing at the weekend over a 35km bike leg and I am wondering if I should remove them. There are 2 points on the race where you have to put you foot down before crossing over a road on a junction and i worried about the time I will lose both here and during transitions. During the races I have done with them I find that mounting the bike is a bit slower in the heat of battle. I think that the racing will be close and I will need every second I can get.
If you are fully adapted to PC’s, I can see no advantage in not using regular cranks for racing. They are lighter and you will still be pedalling in proper circles (ie not applying back pressure).
Dev
Do whatever you feel most comfortable with. I suspect your ciipping in will not be any better with regular cranks because you won’t be used to them. In addition, I was just amazed watching people start the bike at Ralphs at how many had huge problems just getting going, even falling off the bike. Everyone was in such a hurry most did horrible jobs getting started on the bike (having the shoes on the bike was a big part of the problem but I saw one who was wearing shoes have a lot of trouble also). I can’t imagine a second or two taking your time and doing it right would really make much difference in a race such as a triathlon, in fact, could help things.
I thought PCs were a *training *tool? What’s the benefit of leaving them on for a race in which every second counts?
I thought PCs were a *training *tool? What’s the benefit of leaving them on for a race in which every second counts?
Some people actually find they are faster on the PC’s than regular cranks because the PC’s won’t allow your brain to slip back into old habits when you get tired. This is less likely to happen in a 35 k race than a longer one but one never knows.
Frank
Here is some food for thought. I just did a “test” to discover the difference between riding PCs and regular cranks, followed by a run. First I rode the PCs and then a week later rode my regular cranks. I tried to keep my training pretty similar in the four days that preceded each ride.
Here is what I found:
First ride 20K with an average power of 294 watts. I immediately got off and ran three miles in 16:32. This was with my 190mm regular model 4 PCs at 87 rpm.
Second ride of 20K with an average power of 298 watts at 100 rpm. Got off and ran first mile in 5:37 (about 15 seconds slower than previous week) and felt so bad I bagged it right there.
The reason I didn’t use the same length cranks stems from spindle adaptibility on my power meter. In any case, I’m not submitting the study for journal review, so I’m not too worried about the variables. I may have been a little carried away the day before the second test when I found I could put out a lot of power at 105 rpm during a couple of 5-minute tests, but I found in the longer 30-minute test it simply wasn’t sustainable.
If you have been on PCs for a year then you can probably race on them without any problem. If the race is really important and a clutch failure would ruin the day, then I would change them out for regular cranks. Be aware that you ride a little differently with regular cranks. There is a tendency toward higher rpm and sore quads, at least when I make the switch. No matter how much you think you are riding in the same “PC style” you just can’t replicate it on regular cranks.
I have run off PCs without problem up to the half IM distance, so I don’t believe that is an issue either.
Just my observations and opinions from 22 months of use.
Chad
Are you going to use your race wheels, carry only one, or no bottle, even dispense with the spare tire, wear a skinsuit or an aero helmet? If the answer to any of this is yes, then why keep the heavier cranks on the bike? Do you think the benefit of using a training tool and avoiding the slight loss of form that may or may not result is going to be worth the rotating weight of the heavier cranks? Every second counts.
Here is some food for thought. I just did a “test” to discover the difference between riding PCs and regular cranks, followed by a run. First I rode the PCs and then a week later rode my regular cranks. I tried to keep my training pretty similar in the four days that preceded each ride.
Here is what I found:
First ride 20K with an average power of 294 watts. I immediately got off and ran three miles in 16:32. This was with my 190mm regular model 4 PCs at 87 rpm.
Second ride of 20K with an average power of 298 watts at 100 rpm. Got off and ran first mile in 5:37 (about 15 seconds slower than previous week) and felt so bad I bagged it right there.
The reason I didn’t use the same length cranks stems from spindle adaptibility on my power meter. In any case, I’m not submitting the study for journal review, so I’m not too worried about the variables. I may have been a little carried away the day before the second test when I found I could put out a lot of power at 105 rpm during a couple of 5-minute tests, but I found in the longer 30-minute test it simply wasn’t sustainable.
If you have been on PCs for a year then you can probably race on them without any problem. If the race is really important and a clutch failure would ruin the day, then I would change them out for regular cranks. Be aware that you ride a little differently with regular cranks. There is a tendency toward higher rpm and sore quads, at least when I make the switch. No matter how much you think you are riding in the same “PC style” you just can’t replicate it on regular cranks.
I have run off PCs without problem up to the half IM distance, so I don’t believe that is an issue either.
Just my observations and opinions from 22 months of use.
Chad
Chad,
I think your results are pretty typical. That extra 13 rpm didn’t seem like much at the time but it is a big deal if you are not PC adapted to it. People go back to regular cranks and they find it so “easy” to bring the cadence and power up that they do so and then just die after awhile. Riding regular cranks in the PC style is very difficult to do unless one is really well adapted and aware during the race. Someday it may be possible that people will ride regular cranks and PC’s the same without thinking about it but it aint gonna happen in only a year, or even 2, unless, maybe, you are 8 years old.
Chad, your “test” is also interesting from the perspective of those who advocate a high cadence to improve running off the bike. Clearly, it didn’t work for you. I think this is mostly folk lore and not based on any real evidence.
i have used PC’s for . . i dunno, 3 years now i guess. over that time i have formed a massively positive opinion of them. but, i can’t ever see where i would use them in a race. i don’t know about you, but when i try dragging my sorry ass up to speed things get ugly, bro. snot starts flying, white spots start forming in my visual fields, and my tongue starts nicking the spokes. at those times i would rather just trust the PC effect on training, and have the option of pedalling and standing and cornering, unweighting, etc etc that regular cranks afford. i see the training effects of PC’s as additive to the cycling experinence. to use them exclusively would be limiting, in my view.
Here is what I do…not saying this is right…but…
I’ve had PC’s for about 8-9 months. I ride them 2 days per week. I can finally hang on to the back of a group ride on them, but I suffer.
I’ve had RC’s for about 2-3 months. They are on my tri bike. I am currently riding them 2-3 days per week.
I have regular cranks on my road bike which I ride 2-3 days per week.
Here is how I compare to the roadie group that I was riding with last year (1 or 2 CAT 3’s and a couple of 4’s). Last year for the fast rides it was a tough ride on regular cranks, but I took my turn at the front. I was usually pretty shelled by the end of all our rides. This Spring… I can barely hang on with the PC’s and the entire group laughs, mock, and makes fun of me and my PC’s : ). The days I ride my road bike I end up pulling for the majority of the ride. The days I ride my RC’s, I’ve been riding away from the group.
I’m just making an observation. I worked hard over the winter on both the PC’s and regular cranks. Hardly been on the RC’s but they are faster immediately. Switching cranks all the time doesn’t seem to bother me…I seem to be ‘in the groove’ on each of them in about 10-15 minutes. So, I use all 3 types of cranks all the time and feel like I get benefits from all of them. Gotta say though, the RC’s are worth the coin!
Andy
Frank, Cdw’s experiece is in line with what I experienced in the past two years as a PC user. I could crank it up on the bike on regular cranks but then my quads would feel heavy at the end of the bike. Starting the run, I would be quick, but I would have no strength for push off up hills.
I also agree that riding at moderate cadence renders better run splits than riding at super high cadence. I believe that when you go super high cadence, you use your hamstrings and hip flexors more for the same power output (lets say 275 W) that you could achieve with a lower RPM and a higher gear and save the hip flexors and hamstrings for the run. To test this theory I tried racing a few olympic and half Ironman races at >100 RPM and then a few others at lower RPM. When I rode mainly around 100 or lower, I felt better in the second half of the run. Perhaps it is best to TT at a “run like cadence” (ie 85-90 RPM) to ensure a fast run ?
I have barely done any biking this year, but my plan is to ride PC’s for bike commuting 3-4 days a week and use my tri bike with regular cranks for the Wed 90k hammerfest and the Sunday long ride. Personally, I think that unless you are going to race on PC’s, and are going to race on regular cranks, then you need to mix up the training between regular cranks and pc’s to maximize the benefits.
Everyone is the same, only different. (Thought I’d try out my Yogi Berra philosophy.) Same with the cranks. What I found, after doing nothing but PC riding for months (something I haven’t done lately, BTW), is that when I got on regular cranks, I pulled up too much. That’s right. I killed my hip flexors sooner than if I were on PC’s. The reason is that I couldn’t tell if I was pulling up enough, so I just pulled up too hard to compensate. The result wasn’t good, except for a little while…all that pulling up does help the speed. Then, my hip flexors were shelled, and it was back to old-time “just mashing”.
If you run regular cranks, which I would recommend if you are in an A-race with any doubt about the clutch holding up to your massive power when you are full of adrenaline, TRUST your PC training to have improved your pedal stroke. Don’t try and force the upstroke…I don’t think it’s necessary to feel your foot trying to pull out of your shoe on the upstroke! Also, if you do run regular cranks…please practice on them some before you race them. You don’t want any surprises.
Best of wishes in your race!
Personally, I think that unless you are going to race on PC’s, and are going to race on regular cranks, then you need to mix up the training between regular cranks and pc’s to maximize the benefits.
Dev,
I just can’t rationalize a basis for that way of training if one wants maximum race benefit. It seems to me that if one is so ingrained with the PC way of pedaling that it makes no difference which cranks are on the bike, then one is fully adapted and it doesn’t make any difference which cranks one races on or anything else. If it does make a difference, then one is not fully adapted. I can’t see how anyone can ever get to fully adapted if they regularly intersperse training on regular cranks so I can’t see any benefit, except from a generalized cardiovascular fitness point of view, but not from a racing point of view. From a racing point of view, if one gets out of their PC fitness zone when racing they are forcing themselves to ride in a manner that they don’t train all the time so they cannot be racing at peak fitness or form.
I think if one wants to race at higher cadences or longer distances (or both) in the PC fashion it is better to put the time in getting the PC cadence up on PC’s than going back and forth between PC’s and regular cranks so you can ride the regular cranks in hammer fests and on long rides. When you can do the hammer fests and long rides on PC’s without thinking about it, then you have arrived. When you are there you have no need to go back to regular cranks, except to race if you choose.
I accept that many train on them as you do. Please tell me what you think you are training when you are training on regular cranks that you can’t do on PC’s. I just don’t think regular cranks training allows you to get the full racing benefit of the product. Someday someone will have to study this (what is the optimum use). Maybe after someone proves to the cheeses satisfaction that they work it will happen. 
titan,
I agree with you. If one changes how they pedal during a race, whether it be pulling up harder or getting lazy and not pulling up at all, it can hurt their race performance from what they have come to expect from their training.
Frank, my experience is that training on regular cranks, or even rotor cranks, allows for more available energies to go towards the extensor muscle complex, which are the muscles that actually propel the bike. The PC’s undoubtedly help people clean up their stroke in that it demands elevated coordination/heightened awareness with the newfound independence/freedom (which was really a neat feeling, kind of like dancing on a bike) between the legs. However, in my opinion, that is the main benefit in regards to *cycling (not necessarily running, soccer, basketball, gymnastics, etc.), *because I just don’t think the hip flexors can propel a bike with any amount of efficiency. They can certainly contribute in anaerobic bouts, but for largely aerobic bouts, the use of the hip flexors, which is a requirement of PC’s, is a drain of critical energy while cycling.
I understand that people have to hold back on their pushing because their pulling isn’t up to an equivalent training level. So, the choice seems to be, go back to regular cranks to keep the pushing muscles strong and don’t fully develop the pulling muscles (or the coordination) or bite the bullet and fully develop the pulling muscles so one can then fully develop all the muscles. It is harder to do but I think we will find the benefits will be greater to those who can stay the course. It seems empirically obvious to me that it is better to be balanced than unbalanced in our training and conditioning.
It will be interesting to see if Allesandro Colo actually is able to do RAAM on PC’s this year as he intends. If he can, even though he has only been on PC’s for about a year, he will certainly have enough miles to be about as fully transitioned as I think it will be possible to do and it will be interesting to see his improvement from last year and his peroformance compared to the others.
I understand that people have to hold back on their pushing because their pulling isn’t up to an equivalent training level. So, the choice seems to be, go back to regular cranks to keep the pushing muscles strong and don’t fully develop the pulling muscles (or the coordination) or bite the bullet and fully develop the pulling muscles so one can then fully develop all the muscles. It is harder to do but I think we will find the benefits will be greater to those who can stay the course. It seems empirically obvious to me that it is better to be balanced than unbalanced in our training and conditioning.
So you are back to pulling up again, when correct unweighting of total leg, pedal and crank is all that’s necessary. When a PC user stops training with PC’s, does he suffer a setback in his running performance.
perfection wrote: When a PC user stops training with PC’s, does he suffer a setback in his running performance. ?
I can only answer for me. THe answer is yes, for me. The reason I say this is that whenever I’m not on PC’s, I don’t do as well in my running…my 5K times creep up to 21, 22 minutes. All I have to do is PC several times a week on a trainer, and my 5K times drop back to about 20 minutes. Obviously, I’m not much of a runner. I don’t run more than about 10 miles a week on a good week, so maybe ANY run-like training would drop my 5K times down. But, the point is, I don’t run much when doing PC’s. I might run only 3 miles on a week where I ride PC’s three times…and BOOM…my run times improve. So, for ME, as a running tool, PC’s are very effective, with no impact on my old joints when on PC’s, either.
So you are back to pulling up again, when correct unweighting of total leg, pedal and crank is all that’s necessary. When a PC user stops training with PC’s, does he suffer a setback in his running performance.
I think this pulling up thing is misunderstood. Pulling up doesn’t mean necessarily that one is applying pulling up forces on the pedals. Most of the pulling up work is done to overcome the weight of the leg, lifting it up and putting potential energy into it. It doesn’t do any work to propel the bicycle until the downstroke when you recover that potential energy. Everyone does it now, even the Cheese. It is just a matter of degree. Do you completely unweight? Probably not unless you train with PC’s. However, pulling up a little more to apply force on the back stroke is not a big change from simply unweighting if one is already unweighting.
It is our experience that when most users stop using the PC’s they will slowly lose most of the gains they have made in both running and cycling. The speed with which they will lose these gains depends upon how big their PC base is.
I might add as an addendum to my previous comment on training when I said that I didn’t see any benefit to training on regular cranks. That comment is restricted to simply optimizing the PC bike benefits. However, I can see some reasons certain racers might need to train on regular cranks to maintain certain technical skills involved in racing. Riders like mountain bikers, track cyclists, and the most elite pro who needs to race every weekend at the highest level who is starting them during the season.
Frank, I do think that developing pulling muscles to the extent that you are suggesting in itself will result in muscle imbalance. We as humans were never evolved to have that extent of pulling muscles vs pushing muscles. Most of our propulsion in walking , running and jumping come from the push off action.