Looks Like McCain Puts His Money (Sons) Where His Mouth Is: Youngest Son Is A Marine Who Served In Iraq

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/us/politics/06mccain.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1207505855-Bh3ygZtvE9XQFdi4BU+2zg

**McCain Is Vocal on War, but Silent on Son’s Service **


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/06/us/06mccain-600.jpg


Jimmy, Jack, Meghan and Bridget McCain on Super Tuesday 2000 in Los Angeles, with their parents, Senator John McCain and Cindy McCain. Jimmy McCain is now a Marine lance corporal who recently returned from Iraq.

Not that the fact that both of his sons serve their country as military servicemembers qualifies him, in the least, to be our president. Still…it’s nice to see that he and his family pay more than lip service to the ideal of shared sacrifice and shared service.

Okay, I promise I won’t post any more jingoistic, foaming-at-the-mouth rightwing idiocy today. Or, I won’t until at least 12:01AM EST. ;-))

T.

i, for one, wouldn’t put any faith in a story that ran on the front page of the New York Times. . . :slight_smile:

-mike

McCain doesn’t deserve credit for this, his son does. But, given the McCain family history, this was the son’s destiny. I give him credit for trying to downplay his connections.

I think his sons would resent the notion that they were “put” anywhere. His youngest sounds like an admirable guy.

Sure he deserves some…but not for his son being a Marine. He deserves credit for first off being a roll model for his son to join the Marines - from there credit for not being on a soap box about his son being in Iraq with our military. It would have been very easy for him to play the martyr to the post Vietnam folks who were all too aware that the “gifted” ones were not sent to war (Bush for one)…however this is all news to all of us. He, as well as his son should have great honor for the service…

That being said, as much as I hate Hillary and cant wait for Obama to be taken out by a falling asteroid…it will sure be hard to hit a button that has McCain on it at the voting booth.

Actually, this just shows him to be a chickenhawk.

Oops, sorry, I needed to go to the alternative playbook.

This just shows him to be a warmonger, wanting a century of war so he can keep his son in a job and hand out billions to Halliburton.

There aren’t many plays in this playbook. It is embarrassing when I cross my soundbites that way. Sorry.

If you served in the military, you are a warmonger and you need to keep your mouth shut. If you didn’t serve in the military you are a chickenhawk and you need to keep your mouth shut. I think I have this now.

“McCain doesn’t deserve credit for this, his son does.”

What a crock. The parents don’t deserve any credit for raising a solid young man who understands the value of service? Given the remarkably poor job so many parents are doing nowadays, I think the McCains deserve all the credit you can give them.

Still…it’s nice to see that he and his family pay more than lip service to the ideal of shared sacrifice and shared service.

As does one of the Senates more vocal critics of the execution of the war in Iraq. This is not the exclusive domain of the right. Regardless, I do give McCain credit for not making this issue some media circus event, at least not yet.

He’s to be commended, as is Senator McCain and his sons. And Christopher Bond and Duncan Hunter, who have sons serving currently. Nobody said this was the exclusive domain of the Right, by the way. I get the feeling that any bit of what we would consider classic “patriotism” makes people on the lefthand side of the aisle nervous. Why is that?

T.

Actually I don’t see this as a left/right issue at all. Of course, people have tried to make political hay out of this service issue for a while now, but I never thought it held much water. (Hmm lets see how many metaphors I can mix here). The exclusive comment was just yanking your chain in regards to your “jingoistic” comment. I - like vitus - don’t do pink.

Also, the left hand side of the aisle is not universally against “patriotic service”. That is a broad brush, as I am sure you are well aware. These arguments tend to come from the extremes of either wing, without really acknowledging the continuum of the spectrum of the middle ground. Obviously there are many reasons people consider military service - family history (McCain, Webb), moral obligation, economic opportunism, political belief, etc. How this cuts across the political spectrum would be an interesting analysis, especailly where the opportunities for education/training are greater for lower income groups, who often are consdiered as part of the democratic base.

Of course, this also depends on how we define “patriotic service”. I consider something like Peace Corps equally desrving of that qualifying phrase when considered in light of a broad, global political view.

I still see this as essentially a non-issue for the presidential race, and don’t know that a whole lot needs to be made of it.

I get the feeling that any bit of what we would consider classic “patriotism” makes people on the lefthand side of the aisle nervous.

I think your feelings are wrong.

Fighting in a war is not the same thing as patriotism.

I think Samuel Johnson said it best. (quick…to the Google)

Of course, this also depends on how we define “patriotic service”. I consider something like Peace Corps equally desrving of that qualifying phrase when considered in light of a broad, global political view.

I still see this as essentially a non-issue for the presidential race, and don’t know that a whole lot needs to be made of it.



The Peace Corps, by any definition, is patriotic. It’s people doing good for others, and for their country. No argument there.

I also agree that this is a non-issue for any presidential race, which I pointed out when I said that his son’s service in the military doesn’t qualify him, as the father, for any special consideration for the job of our president. It’s nice, though, to know that there are a few politicians out there who do more than “talk the talk” when it comes to service to one’s country.

One of the current president’s daughters works as a public school teacher in the District of Columbia schools and has written a book entitled *Ana’s Story. *It appears as if she took Michelle Obama’s advice (before she gave it) and became a “public servant.”

I think, though, that the ideal of classic patriotism involves deep feelings for one’s country. That’s not to say that one can’t be disappointed in it, for surely we’ve all been hurt in the past. But that’s also to say that one would be willing to serve it to the last full measure, if that were called for. That’s what many (though not all, of course) of us who have served, or are still serving, in the military perceive to be the difference in what Senator Obama might say is patriotism and what we would say is patriotism.

This is why the McCain story, to many of us, is so compelling. He has plenty of warts, no doubt about that, but personal courage, and an obviously close family, go a long way towards easing any trepidation that some of us might feel when it comes time to step into the voting booth this coming November.

T.

I think your feelings are wrong.

Fighting in a war is not the same thing as patriotism


I agree that fighting a war is not the same thing as patriotism. I think, however, that many on the left believe that fighting in that same war for one’s country is somehow an evil thing, and that their (the left’s) principled stand, usually taken at no personal risk to them in our civil society, is somehow equally as courageous or heroic as the actions of those who currently are doing the fighting, and the dying, for the rest of us.

What do you believe to be the elements of true patriotism? I’m sincerely interested in this discussion, mainly because we’re being asked by a man (Obama) to vote for him partially on the basis of what he says is his belief in a new kind of “patriotism,” though I confess it’s of a sort I hadn’t considered before.

T.

**I think Samuel Johnson said it best. (quick…to the Google) **


No need. I know who Johnson is and have a collection of his quotes. Quite thought-provoking, though I think the whole “scoundrel” thing is a bit of a stretch. Still, trust you to use it, squid (why the small “ess?” I’ve always wondered that).

T.

OK - I am kind of game for this, but would like to be on even footing with you here. Do you have a reference to a speech or quotes that defines Obama’s new patriotism. I think I have a feel for what he is getting at, but don’t wnat to go down too many rabbit holes guessing at what he, or you, mean by this.

I think the whole “scoundrel” thing is a bit of a stretch.

Of course, scoundrels usually do.

**Of course, scoundrels usually do. **


It usually takes one to know one, my octopoid brother :wink:

T.

Below, a couple of links to articles about Obama’s new patriotism, and the dropping of wearing a flag lapel pin. I’ll state for the record that I don’t believe that wearing a flag pin qualifies one as a patriot nor does not wearing one disqualify. I find this effort on the part of the Senator to be interesting, as this’ll be the first time a candidate has tried this. How it’ll play in many parts of the country is definitely a question.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21138728/

http://www.counterpunch.org/fantina03012008.html

http://www.chron.com/...olitics/5564470.html

http://edition.cnn.com/...atriotism/index.html

T.

I think your feelings are wrong.

Fighting in a war is not the same thing as patriotism.

You might consider reading the book by John McCain call Hard Call. I read it and was fascinated. In fact, I started a thread about it a couple of months back. In the book, McCain has a chapter about a guy named Reinhold Niebuhr. I would be very surprised if you didn’t know about him already. But I think it is safe to say that McCain strongly admires Niebuhr and probably subscribes to his definition of patriotism. It is worth a read in my opinion.

Bernie