I’m looking for a bombproof rear wheel for training. I want it to be compatible with the CH aero cover. Don’t worry about the weight, durability is more important.
The reason I’m asking you guys is because I purchased a Powertap SL, built into a Velocity Aerohead OC rim. Before I purchased it they told me that this is a solid wheel. After about 900miles the wheel is already out of true. Not just a little, big time. In fact, yesterday after my hill repeats I had to completely loosen the rear brake caliper to prevent rubbing of the brake pads.
I called VelocityUSA today and the wheelbuilder told me that with the Power I produce this wheel isn’t strong enough.
What can you guys suggest? Velocity Fusion has been suggested, but I want to hear other options.
I’m just sick of having to send my rear wheels back to the company. The FSA RD-400 that came with my road bike needed truing after only 400miles. Then, after another hundred miles it was out of true again with a broken spoke. Had to be sent back to the company. Thought it was a shitty wheel and looked foreward for the Velocity Aerohaed. Now same story once again. PLEASE, somebody help me !!!
The guys at velocity may be right on the aerohead. From what i know of your power out puts you could just be killing wheels left and right. I am really suprised that you have not done this to frames yet. I’ll throw out the suggestion of the velocity Deep V with super strong/thick spokes. I have 6 of them (3F,2R and 1PT) some 3 years old and with 10,000+ miles and have never trued any of them. Good luck man. P3 built up yet?
Frankly, that sounds like a bunch of crap. Wheels go out of true because of poor build quality, not rider power. Find an LBS that knows how to build wheels. Then learn how to build and true them yourself. All it takes is a spoke wrench, The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt, and some time. You don’t even need a truing stand: you can use your brake calipers instead, if you need to.
Most of the factory build wheels I have gotten from PowerTap sucked. I recommend people build their own wheels with the Powertap hub. Had the same issues as you and I only weigh 150-160.
After I built my wheels with really high tension the detensioning problems went away but I check the spoke tension every once in a while just to be sure. There always seems to be one or two spokes that need tightening up on one of the factory built wheels.
I’m using the default Mavic Open and Velocity Deep and Mavic 517. The Deeps are heavy and have no spoke hole reinforcement.
The wheel could have been built really badly. If a wheel isn’t built right you get the same result.
The Aerohead OC rim should be plenty strong enough for you. I’d have a REAL expert wheelbuilder take a look at the wheel. They might be able to salvage it with some good tuning.
I think bombproof is a bad word for wheels, because some people can pretty much ruin any wheel. Power may cause some problems, but power alone is probably not the biggest factor in a wheel getting out of true. I think that we are getting way carried away with radial lacing, low spoke count wheels that are tensioned to the max. They can be problems waiting to happen. The only ride I have ever called my wife in to save me was when a Rolf wheel broke a spoke and was so out of true it rubbed the frame.
36 hole three crossed 14ga spoked wheels on any rim makes for a pretty solid wheel. I use the aerohead rim 36 hole wheel for cyclocross and I weigh on the long side of 200lbs.
Another big factor is the builder. Yes I can lace up my own wheels but prefer for the top wheel guy in our area to do mine, because wheel building is an art and a skill and building one set of wheels a year dosn’t keep my skills very sharp. For a twelve pack of micro brew I get a lifetime warranty with my wheels. I currently disagree with my wheel builder as he likes more spoke tension than I do, but he is damn good so he wins. Get a good builder to do your wheels.
One of the biggest factors is the rider. Some people crush wheels and other bigger more powerful riders ride very “light” and don’t have nearly as many problems. So I don’t know if I have a good answer for you. My most “bomb proof” wheels are probably Velocity deep V 3 crossed on a 36 hole rim. One of my favorite wheels is Mavic box section rims 3x on 36. If you go to Cyclingnews.com and look at the Paris-Robaiux pictures, you will not see a lot of carbon rims, but a lot of box sectioned high spoke wheels 3 crossed. There is another good wheel site, I think it is Gravywheels.com. He has some interesting reading on wheels. Hope that helps. G
That’s what the wheelbuilder at VelocityUSA told me. I spoke with him on the phone this afternoon and he suggested the Fusion instead of the Aerohead. He told me that at my weight and power output, the Aerohead is not that solid and that he wouldn’t have suggested that wheel to me. Currently I weigh around 170, during racing about 165lbs. I agree that build quality is important. I don’t think that build quality were the only factor in the two new rear wheels (FSA RD 400 & Velocity Aerohead) I purchased to become out of true. What are the chances of receiving 2 poorly built wheels?
But thanks for the book recommendation. I will check it out.
OK, let’s have it already with the power numbers. I’m only a couple pounds lighter than you, high 150’s, and have the same wheel and hub as you. I’ve got several thousand miles on mine, and it’s still true. Mine were built up by Rich at wheelbuilder.com. What type of watts are you putting up?
I’m new to this newsgroup; this thread really hit home for me. I’m ‘still’ a Clyde (238), driving a Kestrel Talon SL down the coast ~ 120miles/week. My nomination for a “bombproof” wheel?
X-LAB front and rear (tri-spoke)
Here’s the URL: airointernational.com located a 1/2 block or so from Nytro in Encinitas.
Last year I could hold 374W for over 47min. This year I am not in really good shape yet, especially endurance wise. I guess that right now I could hold about 300-330 for that time. Don’t have that data for longer periods of time because of traffic. Looking at Cyclingpeaks, I was holding 1003W for 6 sec while sprinting and I 485W for 2.5min at some point. Don’t have that much data collected yet.
I know that there are many more powerful riders out there. I just want a solid training wheel that is compatible with CH aero covers. I hate to keep having to complain about new stuff I purchase and send it back in. Yes, they have warranty but shipping always costs me money.
And just to get it clear because ST is a pretty hostile zone at times. I didn’t suggest that I put out too much power for that wheel (at my weight). It was the wheelbuilder for that manufacturer. And I have respect for them for saying that. Plenty others wouuldn’t have been so informative. I would be happy to give them another try but thought I would collect some information on ST first.
No question that it is not you, rather the rim or the build or the spokes. My guess is that it’s the OC rim, as I have a hard time thinking that the builder at Velocity didn’t build them properly, unless you have some super light gauge spokes.
I have three powertap pro’s (I know not SL), all built on Arrowhead OC’s two 32 hole, one 28 and have had no real issues with trueness once I got good rims to build on. I built them myself with 2.0/1.8 gauge (14/15’s in old English) DT spokes. I weigh 175lbs and my 60min power (normalized) is 365w. I do standing sprints with 5sec power in the 1500’s and the wheels have been fine. So we are very similar.
I think that it is the rim because I have gotten 3 of the Arrowhead OC’s where the rim was way out of true at the joint (seam) such that you had to really crank down on 2 to 3 of the spokes on one side of the wheel to bring it back to true. This screwed up the tension and/or roundness (huge tension differential) so that the wheel never stayed true AND round AND well tensioned, all of which you need for a bombproof wheel (I could only get two of the three). I unbuilt the wheel and made the LBS take back the rim. I got a new rim and the same thing happened, but the third one was good. Same thing happened with the 28 and the next rim was good. Ask the builder if he uses a DT tensiometer, because it shows up clearly when you use that.
Clearly there is some mfg. thing going on with the OC where the rim starts life way out of shape, and as soon as you lace up the wheel (minimal tension in the spokes) you can identify it. Everything is smooth and then at the joint BIG jump to one side and just after the joint, BIG jump back to the middle. I don’t know how rims are made but I guess the joint is an important place, such that if you screw it up, the rim is shot.
I’m not sure if velocity actually built the wheel as I purchased it from a well known online store. But this is very interesting. You seem to really understand the concepts of wheel building, if you had to build a wheel again, what rim would you choose?
“Riding light” is a sort of madeup term meaning not hitting curbs, pot holes, and rough roads without unweighting the bike by either a slight upward pull on the pedals(not quite a hop), or at least taking some of the weight off the saddle by lifting up your butt. I am no way telling you that you are doing that, but some people are just harder on equipment than others.
Did I miss how many spokes and crosses your wheels have? On a 36 hole wheel you can even go 4 cross to make the wheel more laterally strong. You do put out a good bit of power, but riding at 500 watts for an hour won’t stress a wheel out as much as standing starts or 6 sec sprints. Hitting a hole at 15 mph will knock a wheel way out of true more than a track sprinter will. I am not too sure what is going on with your wheels, but do please keep us posted. This has been one of the nicer threads we have had in a while. G
I’m not, in general, a fan of non-eyeletted rims, so I tend to avoid the Velocity rims. That said, I had 2 pair of the OEM Velocity/Cane Creeks last Cross season, and they were OK… killed 'em both, but they died a noble death.
I think that the previous post that talked about non-true rims may have been on to something; I have seen a few “off” velocity rims, and they would have built sketchy wheels - they could be built round, but the spoke tension around the wheel would be way off, and they wouldn’t last very long. It can take quite a bit of tension to move a deep section rim. These rims would wind up in the close out bin at the bike shops I worked at.
My PT wheel is Mavic Open pro 32h, 3 cross, DT competition 2/1.8 spokes tied and soldered, brass nips.
I am truly a fan of tied/soldered spokes - they have had a noticeably longer lifespan on my bike than non-tied spokes.
Brass nips on rear wheel, or at least on the drive side - always.
3x on drive spokes, OK if 2x on non drive, but prefer 3x there, too.
I have heard convincing arguments made for the superiority of double butted spokes V/ straight guage in terms of wheel longevity. Dbl butted has always worked well for me…
Mavic open pro rims are the industry standard for box section, eyeletted rims, and for a reason; they are quite good. A bit overbuilt, if anything. I actually think that I prefer the Ambrosio excellence rim, but these are hard to find in the states.
My SL wheel, when the hub comes in, will be:
28 hole, DT Revolution, tied and soldered, 3x, brass nips drive, alloy non-drive, on an Ambrosio Excellence rim.
I use Mavic Opren Pro rims and Campy Chorus hubs, 32 spoke, with 14 gauge straight DT spokes and brass nipples and a 3 cross lacing pattern, no soldering, though. I’ve never had any problems with these. I probably have more than 20,000 miles on at least one of the three sets of these I own. For a reliable and durable wheel, you can’t go wrong with these.
They are bombproof wheels! And you know what? Mavic Ksyriums weigh 1760 grams a set about and my Open Pros weigh 1800 grams a set. Not too shabby for bombproof training wheels when so many think the Ksyriums are the cat’s meow as far as light and aero is concerned.
Really, they are poorly informed/educated about the Ksyriums. The Ksyriums are not really all that light as far as a wheelset goes. Just because their spokes are bladed doesn’t make them any more aero than round steel spokes when you consider that the thickness of the bladed Mavic spoke far exceeds the thickness of the 14 gauge straight steel spoke.
G-man is correct, too. “Another big factor is the builder. Yes I can lace up my own wheels but prefer for the top wheel guy in our area to do mine, because wheel building is an art and a skill and building one set of wheels a year doesn’t keep my skills very sharp. For a twelve pack of micro brew I get a lifetime warranty with my wheels. I currently disagree with my wheel builder as he likes more spoke tension than I do, but he is damn good so he wins. Get a good builder to do your wheels.”
I completely agree that it takes a good wheel builder to build a good wheel. Just because somebody can lace a wheel and tension the spokes does not insure their wheel will be well built.
Your size and power output is above average for a cyclist. As such, you will place greater demands (stress) on a set of wheels. Where a wheel with an average or mediocre build would work fine for many, your cycling demands would quickly determine that wheel was substandard.
I’ll throw out the suggestion of the velocity Deep V with super strong/thick spokes. I have 6 of them (3F,2R and 1PT) some 3 years old and with 10,000+ miles and have never trued any of them. Good luck man. P3 built up yet?