I typically do my long run on Saturday, my long ride on Sunday. Monday is usually my rest day if I feel like I need it.
I read in this month’s Triathlete that it is adviseable to do your long ride day before your long run day so as to be running on tired legs – like we do during a race.
That makes a certian kind of sense but is it really important? My schedule - as it is - works really well for me time-wise and recovery-wise. I hate to blow it up unless I’m really going to see benefits.
Being a coach, for myself, this has been a hot topic for me over the last several years and I have tried to read everything I can on it. Here’s a condensed distillation: It seems to come down to the idea that the Sat/Sun schedule is for convenience as much as anything; most people don’t have the time for long w/o’s during the week The running on tired legs vs. fresh legs opinions split about 50-50 The most important thing for endurance improvement is to be able to create a schedule that is repeatable, week after week after week.
Net:Net, if your sched works for you, that is the most important thing.
Do what works for you. It has been debated both ways and it’s usually recommended to break up the long ride/run and put the run mid week. Second choice would be the way you are doing it now. Most folks disagree with the “running on tired legs” philosophy, as it compromises the run quality and leaves you susceptible to injury. To work on the “tired legs”, do a short brick run (20-60 min) off the long bike. This will enable you to get used to the transition from bike to run and won’t beat you up long term.
I feel that it is a question of effectiveness and recovery. Can you get an effective long bike/run workout the day after a long run/bike workout. I feel that I can recover from a long ride on Saturday to have an effective long run on Sunday, not a death march. I don’t feel that I would get as an effective long bike workout in the day after a long run. I feel it takes longer to recover from a long run, and I wouldn’t be able to do the quality of ride I’d want the day afterwards. I also don’t feel like I could do my long run during the week, since it would interfere with my higher intensity workouts. I do my long stuff on the weekends, and just swim and do yoga on Mondays to recover.
This was just debated about 2-3 weeks ago. You can’t “teach” yourself to run on tired legs. Either they are tired and you run or they are not tired and you run either way your running. If you know how to run on fresh legs then guess what? You know how to run on tired legs. I advocate against long ride/long run because if your beat up from your long ride you compromise your long run as it is physically more demanding. I’d rather you cover X miles on your long run than cover X-Y miles b/c your beat up. After all the purpose of a long run is to actually go and run long, not medium long or almost long but long, whatever that may be to you.
Convience factor for many dictates that you go long both weekend days. Just as most sane people who want to get faster would not go to the track and give it a sub par effort, you to, should do your hardest workouts first, then the easier workouts, both daily and during your weekly and monthly training cycles. Of course there will be times when that is not feasible. But you will see better results and get more benefit doing your highest quality work when you can actually do high quality work.
Anyway, like desert dude said, we had this same discussion some weeks ago. I agree with him and his reasons and on the other thread efernand also gave his opinion. I guess the stuff that me and desert dude do works with our athletes and the stuff efernand does works with his athletes.
I’ll just add that even for time-constraint age-groupers I reccomend the long run on wed-thur. I ask them to do whatver they need to do in order to run long that day.
hey sac, why wed, thurs instead of tuesday? it would seem that tuesday would give you more time to recover and get in some other key workouts before the long ride on the weekend.
This was just debated about 2-3 weeks ago. You can’t “teach” yourself to run on tired legs.
“why not?” you ask. Not trying to be a smartass :-), but I’m guessing you already know how to run. You need to ask yourself what do you actually want to accomplish and what you will accomplish trying to teach yourself to run on tired legs? your running velocity is slower which does not help you to run faster, your mileage for that run is lower which defeats the purpose of running long, your risk for injury is higher, the training effect is lessened, recovery will take longer and your more fatigued after. In fact the only reason to do this if you are in the M30-34 AG.
If you want to get the sensation that will follow the bike in a race, do transition runs of 20-45min depending upon ability after your long bikes. These do not have to be fast to adapt to running after biking nor do they have to be long.
This was just debated about 2-3 weeks ago. You can’t “teach” yourself to run on tired legs.
“why not?” you ask. Not trying to be a smartass :-), but I’m guessing you already know how to run. You need to ask yourself what do you actually want to accomplish and what you will accomplish trying to teach yourself to run on tired legs? your running velocity is slower which does not help you to run faster, your mileage for that run is lower which defeats the purpose of running long, your risk for injury is higher, the training effect is lessened, recovery will take longer and your more fatigued after. In fact the only reason to do this if you are in the M30-34 AG.
If you want to get the sensation that will follow the bike in a race, do transition runs of 20-45min depending upon ability after your long bikes. These do not have to be fast to adapt to running after biking nor do they have to be long.
your running velocity need not be slower. that is under your control. as is the mileage. however, i would argue that if you enter the workout tired/depleted, you can induce the same adaptation with a slightly shorter run.
i think it’s a myth that risk for injury is higher.
why is the training effect lessened. if you maintain the intensity, it is the same.
you’re right, if i do it like you say and slow down then i am not learning to run on tired legs. however, if i go into that workout with a clear purpose and hold a desired effort for the desired time, then i have provided a good stimulus and done so with tired legs.
20-45 minute transition runs are nice as well. but they have absolutely nothing to do with a long run or inducing the adaptatons necessary for a good ironman run.
Brent makes some great points and i agree especially with this remark “20-45 minute transition runs are nice as well. but they have absolutely nothing to do with a long run or inducing the adaptatons necessary for a good ironman run.”
… some of my other thoughts:
One thing i have found is that most athletes have a hard time doing a long run mid-week (a.m.) then follow a productive day at work for 8-9 hours. Or evcen worse running for 2:00+ starting at 6pm. A couple of my folks tried this and then we went back to the weekend. (occasionally we will run long on SAT then ride on SUN for a break OR do SAT/SUN days both as ride/runs)
Lastly … one item i discuss with MANY AG athletes (if doing SAT long ride & long run on SUN) is proper pacing on the bike during the Saturday effort so the Sunday run is not sabotaged. I see alot of poor choices on Saturday that yield less than productive efforts on Sunday.
Remember … you know your body, it’s strength and how it responds, so schedule accordingly! ENJOY
"20-45 minute transition runs are nice as well. but they have absolutely nothing to do with a long run or inducing the adaptatons necessary for a good ironman run. "
You’re right there brent. But they’re not indended to, the adaptations necessary for a good ironman run and worked with other training methods.
“If you know how to run on fresh legs then guess what? You know how to run on tired legs.”
I hear what you are saying and agree with you in part, that a good runner will know how and will have the ability to run well on legs that are fatigued from running - that’s why they are good runners! However, the difference in triathlon is that you are starting off the run with the fatigue of cycling 40K or whatever distance in your legs - that’s a key difference. This will impact how well you run in the first 1/3 of a triathlon run, after that then it’s the real running legs that will take over as you are then dealing with the ultimate fatigue of the run itself.
I typically do my long run on Saturday, my long ride on Sunday. Monday is usually my rest day if I feel like I need it.
I read in this month’s Triathlete that it is adviseable to do your long ride day before your long run day so as to be running on tired legs – like we do during a race.
That makes a certian kind of sense but is it really important? My schedule - as it is - works really well for me time-wise and recovery-wise. I hate to blow it up unless I’m really going to see benefits.
Any thoughts?
SM
Not a coach, but why not alternate weekends? However my long runs on Saturday are usually 2 to 2.25 hours, whereas the long runs on Sunday will usually be 2.5 to 3 hours. I have found a really long run on Saturday will compromise a Sunday ride. If I really have a hard or long bike on a Saturday, I usually postpone the Sunday run to later in the afternoon or evening.
Unless you have a nice trust fund or someone is paying you very handsomely to compete in this sport full time, outside commitments are going to interfere with your training and you just have to do the best you can when you can.
If you can ride 70 miles on a Wednesday afternoon, great, but most of us have to be in an office somewhere and they only let us out to play on Saturday and Sunday for extended periods.
I’ll ride 3-4 hours on a Saturday and run 16-18 on a Sunday and don’t really feel it in my legs…probably because I’m not riding hard enough. Going long on back to back days is better than not…its not ideal, just better.
