my long runs are usually in the the range of 9-12 miles. Should I worry about my heart rate going up in the later stages of the run? it goes up to 165 with the same pace that i set out at. Most of the initial miles it stays around low 150s. Shall i do the long runs according to HR or just the pace and perceived effort. At 165 beats, I am not tired but pretty warmed up and loose. any thoughts?
Heart rate drift is normal. If your pace is constant on a flat course, your HR will still go up over the length of the run. 1-2 bpm increase per mile would be normal. If your pace is comfortable where you could carry on a conversation, you are doing them just right.
I have the same experience doing 15-18 mile long runs. Generally, I just use the hrm to make sure I start off easy. After a few miles it really just depends on how I feel and what I think I can run the rest of the mileage at without going too hard.
I would suggest you continue to monitor your heart rate the first half of the run. After that, if it goes up (but stays below lactate threshold) I wouldn’t worry about it.
what if his HR goes above LT? Then what?
what if his HR goes above LT? Then what?
Most likely he’ll just spontaneously combust…
what if his HR goes above LT? Then what?
that’s a very interesting question you pose. In fact, 165 or so is my subthreshold and almost corresponds to my steady state run in the later half of the run. I do feel warmed up and great though. My LT occurs around 175 or so. Is it a good idea in a long run to hit your LT once in a while?
Also, is my aerobic base heart rate (AeT) closing in on my aerobic threshold (AT)? I ask this question because during my latter half of the run I am hitting my subthreshold, but now i wonder if that is an improvement of my aerobic base, as the perceived effort is not difficult but rather enjoyable.
any inputs on that?
It gives a great training effect to raise your HR above aerobic threshold towards the end of a long run. In fact, one should finish every long run or bike at a higher pace than starting out. The worst thing to do is to start worrying about your HR being too high and slowing down towards the end! I most often for example put in 30 minutes at HR about 165 at the end of a 3-4 h bike ride at HR 140, or raise my HR progressively. Running, same thing, perhaps last 15 minutes at or above marathon pace.
I do think it´s a good thing to once in a while hit the lactate threshold too. It´s good to do rhythm changes and prepare your body to handle different situations. teach your body to neutralize the lactate acid and continue at an aerobic pace.
If your HR is going up 20-40 bpm on, for example, a 20-mile run at the same pace then your aerobic conditioning is poor. A little HR drift is normal, especially in the last 5 miles or so due to heat accumulation. But 40 bpm ain’t drift; it’s called being unfit for your attempted distance. I’d like to meet the person that could carry on a conversation at 190 bpm for very long.
If your HR is going up 20-40 bpm on, for example, a 20-mile run at the same pace then your aerobic conditioning is poor. A little HR drift is normal, especially in the last 5 miles or so due to heat accumulation. But 40 bpm ain’t drift; it’s called being unfit for your attempted distance. I’d like to meet the person that could carry on a conversation at 190 bpm for very long.
My experience with even pacing, is that after an initial leveling out, the HR goes up ever so slowly during the length of the run. If you look at a graph of my HR it is practically a straight line with a slight growth. 20 pbm increase would be normal, 40 might be a lot for me. Various factors affect how big of a drift this is including temperature, humidity, dehydration, and heat build up on your body. On a cool day you might not have much drift.
If you are unfit for your attempted distance, I’ve noticed HR can actually drop towards the end of the run, not increase. You no longer have the ability to propel yourself at that even pace and HR goes down. I don’t know the OP’s HR ranges, but so perhaps 150-170+ would be conversational, it wouldn’t be for me, but my HR is about 135/140 at the start of a long run and hopefully stays below 160 on an even paced long run.
so if i start out at around higher 140s and settle in the 150s (conversational pace) and end around mid 160s, it is not a problem? right? I will maxing out at 14 miles for my long run.
- so if i start out at around higher 140s and settle in the 150s (conversational pace) and end around mid 160s, it is not a problem? right? I will maxing out at 14 miles for my long run.*
As aforementioned, no, it should not be a problem. For a visual example of HR drift, here is my run from last Sunday. I live in the mountains, so usually there are too many variables. However, last week I was in Toledo and did an out and back on a very flat multi-use trail with minimal wind so there were no elevation issues and I was able to maintain a steady pace.
Let’s say you break the 14-mile run into 3 equal segments. And you try to maintain the same average pace across all 3 segments. And let’s also assume all environmental variables remain constant over the 14 miles. In that scenario, if you avg 145 bmp for the first 3 miles, 155 bmp for second 3 miles, and 165 for the last 3 miles, then your running economy still needs work.
I’m nowhere close to a FOP or elite runner, but in 14 miles my HR won’t change more than 5-7 bmp from my first to 14th mile (at the same pace). On occasion, I might deliberately try to finish hard/fast, in which case my bpm in the last 25% of the run may go up 10-15 bpm, but my pace comes way down. Having a large increase in HR and no (or very small) reduction in pace means you are inefficient at that distance. Your cardio vascular system and mitochondria are “undertrained” and thus you need to pump more blood via more heart beats to maintain that same pace. You should consider doing more base work.
I’ll no doubt be in the minority opinion about this on ST, where the conventional wisdom is that you need to run your long runs at race pace or faster. People think it’s a pointless workout unless at some point your flirting with or beating the shit out your LT.
i agree with you here that running long runs at race pace will not do any good. I think one of the reason my HR goes up is because I mix some segments (about 800m or 1600m) with race pace simulation and sometimes race pace + 20 sec simulation. After that, I bring my pace down to LR pace but it becomes difficult to bring my HR down but I feel warmed up and pretty good.
I am just kinda on the fence as to how to do my long runs in the right manner. Maybe perceived exertion is a good idea towards the last 1/3rd of the run. One of things is of worth mentioning is that I am recovering good and do not feel beat up the next day.
what if his HR goes above LT? Then what?
Well then you go lactic. This isn’t such a big deal if this happens at toward the end of the long run. But you can only go lactic for so long, as I’m sure you are well aware of. I do some longer runs where I progress the second half or so (those are normally 14-16 miles when my regular long run is 18) and I generally will go lactic the last few miles. I think there is a lot of benefit to these types of runs… running relatively fast while very tired. Be careful though, if you are going lactic for longer than your normal threshold runs, you probably will take too long to recover and it will end up being detrimental.
BUT it sounds like you are recovering just fine so I would suggest you just keep putting in the hard work like you are already doing!
So are you increasing pace to “go lactic”? Or are you saying that an increasing HR, once it goes above a certain point, causes you to go lactic?
I am increasing pace. I’m just saying that I don’t think it is terrible to go lactic on a long run if it is in the last few miles.
I might suggest that you are looking at it the wrong way. Perhaps use HR to guide your effort and keep your Hr steady and low to build your base. I find that athletes with a deep and strong “aerobic” base can run all day at the same “pace”…o.k 15 miles and not have drift, that is the sign of deep fitness. In fact you may start slow and build the HR by 10 beats to your base HR and then watch the Garmin, when you slow, you have found your base limiter. Not many people have this patience but if you are doing Ironman you will need it. Just a different take. G
I think going lactic at the end of a long run while dropping the pace is okay, assuming it’s with a specific purpose, like trying to simulate your fatigue level at mile 23 of a marathon. Personally, I would keep the time at or above LT very short so the long run doesn’t require extra recovery time that will impact subsequent workouts.
Totally agree with gmueller. If you see one that continually drifts upward like the one posted above it tells you a lot. I would not worry so much that it drifts upward during a training run, with time and training that should go away. The key to knowing your are fit to race the longer distances is to train enough to know that it is rock solid at your race pace for whaterver distance you plan on racing during long training runs. If HR starts increasing from the get go, you know that endurance is where the focus should be. Over the course of a marathon, a drift of 5 (10 is on the high side) is normal - not 20. If you see something on the order of 20, fitness or dehydration must be a factor
Yep, I agree with Greggor.
If it drifts that much, then you need to work on your endurance at slower paces. Once you can run at say 70% of max without much drift, bump it up 5% (of max), then work on that and so on.
As an example, I did a 20k run yesterday, and my hr was within 2 or 3 beats the whole way at the same pace. I’ve really been working on this since the fall.