Anybody from the UK know if that was the course they intend to use for 2012? I know it’s supposed to be based around the Serpentine in Hyde Park but wondering if they’re still experimenting with courses or is that it?
What did people think of the race who watched it? (who have a genuine interest in draft racing…not just wanting to whine on about a boring foot races please)
The run was about 500m short judging by both the mens and womens times, that’ll need abit of work.
SB.
The run was about 500m short judging by both the mens and womens times, that’ll need abit of work.
lol, Greg Bennett just posted that on his facebook 22 minutes ago :)
The bike course for the Olympics will head out of Hyde Park and catch a few of the sights.
Anybody from the UK know if that was the course they intend to use for 2012? I know it’s supposed to be based around the Serpentine in Hyde Park but wondering if they’re still experimenting with courses or is that it?
Swim the same, bike likely different with fewer laps and more “sights” - easier to close more roads for the Olympics.
It’ll still be won by the fastest runner, the bike and swim will be irrelevant again I’m sure.
It’ll still be won by the fastest runner, the bike and swim will be irrelevant again I’m sure.
gotta love ITU racing! rolls eyes
Anybody from the UK know if that was the course they intend to use for 2012? I know it’s supposed to be based around the Serpentine in Hyde Park but wondering if they’re still experimenting with courses or is that it?
Swim the same, bike likely different with fewer laps and more “sights” - easier to close more roads for the Olympics.
It’ll still be won by the fastest runner, the bike and swim will be irrelevant again I’m sure.
That’s right, if you can swim fast enough to stay with the front pack, or ride hard enough over the first 5-10 km to catch the group. And then ride smart enough to save your legs for the 10 km run, or have prepared yourself so 40km’s of constant surging doesn’t take the shine off your run. Which is exactly what most of the athletes that go to non draft racing have proved they’re unable to do. Note I say most, there are exceptions, and I’m sure Greg’s gonna jump in here and put me in my place.
But I’m guessing you sir…Jibber…are not one of those exceptions.
at least they have 3 years to figure out how to measure the course. Never ceases to amaze me how many times World Championship courses are not accurate. Maybe the ITU should start contracting some of the IAAF course certifying folk for their major races.
It’ll still be won by the fastest runner, the bike and swim will be irrelevant again I’m sure.
That’s right, if you can swim fast enough to stay with the front pack, or ride hard enough over the first 5-10 km to catch the group.
You’re underestimating the importance of teams, you don’t need to ride hard enough, you just need to have team mates who can ride hard enough to get you in the lead group whilst you conserve your legs. Even in the less of a team event than the Olympics will be that we saw today we had Jonathan Brownlee work until the run. He’s a much stronger runner than we saw today, but he wasn’t up there - but was coming through on the bike whenever his brother called him.
Note I didn’t say anything about the lack of ability of the athletes in swimming or cycling (buy you could see from Morrison’s inability to simply eat and ride in a straight line that bike handling is not a big skill in elite triathlon) simply that the best runner - as opposed to the best swimmer/cyclist will win the event.
But I’m guessing you sir…Jibber…are not one of those exceptions.
I run pretty well off a surging bike, but then I’m much more of a roadie/runner than a triathlete or time triallist even. However the fact that I can’t swim for tuppence, only just have a 4watt/kilo ftp and can just squeak under 40minutes for 10km is much more of a reason why I’m not an elite athlete.
Jim,
I don’t think he underestimates the importance of any tactic. Salmon Steve likely knows more about ITU racing then 99.9% of us on here. His partner (wife?) has won 7 ITU World Cup events (approx I think, based on a quick search of the ITU athlete database). So you do make some good points, however, learn from Steve - he’s been around the elite circuit for many years!
Dan
So, what you are saying is… you don’t know anything about ITU racing. That’s cool.
I don’t think he underestimates the importance of any tactic. Salmon Steve likely knows more about ITU racing then 99.9% of us on here.
But rather than talk about the deficiencies in the olympic format that make it a team sport (but without actual team entry, so unfair) that is massively biased towards the run. He thinks any statement about the fact the strongest runner will win the London Olympics a criticism of it. It’s rather defensive, and a shame.
It would be great to have more input about what would make it a more interesting spectator sport, and an actual balance of swimming/cycling and running.
Actually, if you want to look at it another way, look at the training required to be successful on the circuit. In terms of volume, more hours are spent in the pool then on the run. This is necessary just to get to the level of swim ability required to stay in the race. And they put in a fairly close amount of bike training too - not as much as Ironman guys but still quite high. I would suggest training requirements are fairly well balanced even if the racing time is not.
In terms of a spectator sport, I would argue that no endurance sport is ever going to be a top spectator sport to the general masses. I love draft-legal triathlon - there are many tactics in play right from the start (even the first 200m can make or break a race - estimates are in the 2:05 range for that first 200m for guys - that’s fast!!). What about road racing - consider a flat road race that involves 4-5 hours of riding followed by a bunch sprint - that’s not exactly a spectator sport either.
What do you think the deficiencies are that would make it less of a team sport?
Dan
It would be great to have more input about what would make it a more interesting spectator sport,
The above could be a thread by itself, discussing ITU races specifically.
Firstly I do find the ITU race style is interesting to watch, but I think it helps to have a bit of an interest in cycling. And I only really like it when there is a break-away on the bike that works.
Also triathlon is quickly becoming a worldwide sport and the olympics is part of that. But the olympics are only every four years, and most interest seems to be in non-drafting longer distance races inbetween olympics.
One of the biggest things holding back ITU olympic distance triathlons is that very few people outside the elites actually race that way. There were 48 men elites who finished in London, so that is an incredibly small number of pros compared to many other sports.
ITU has done a great job of offering opportunities for the woman though in that they get similar prize money, and my pick is the womans ITU olympic triathlons will get better to watch in a few years as more different countries are represented.
I think swim and run volume is not that easy to look at in terms of time, the impact requirements of the two sports mean that you can spend a lot more on the swim than the run. I never suggested that it’s simply about the run, you still have to be a great swimmer and a strong (if not necessarily technically good) cyclist. Yet the result comes down to pretty much the standalone 10km PB order.
What do you think the deficiencies are that would make it less of a team sport?
There’s two options that I can see, one is to make it a team sport, actually have teams, so every team/country gets to put in a team, rather than biasing it to the countries with larger number of athletes that can qualify to start and then sacrifice their own race for their team mates.
The other is to lose the drafting allowance, but the race would need to be lengthened for that.
Otherwise more technical and hilly bike courses, so there’s a chance for actual attacks to get and stay away - however with the bike handling we saw today, that would probably rapidly reduce the size of the fields through injury. Some cobbles, some steep hills, some technical corners something to reward the strong bikers, and limit the advantage a team has.
I don’t think he underestimates the importance of any tactic. Salmon Steve likely knows more about ITU racing then 99.9% of us on here.
But rather than talk about the deficiencies in the olympic format that make it a team sport (but without actual team entry, so unfair) that is massively biased towards the run. He thinks any statement about the fact the strongest runner will win the London Olympics a criticism of it. It’s rather defensive, and a shame.
It would be great to have more input about what would make it a more interesting spectator sport, and an actual balance of swimming/cycling and running.
The point is, really, that ITU racing is at least honest racing. The 7m draft zone is not “non-drafting” and that’s assuming it’s even enforced (which is rarely is). Add is the stagger rule at USAT races and you have something that is merely a mockery of non-drafting. The ITU presented the most appropriate solution for short course racing where you have 5-15 guys coming out of the water within seconds of each other. If you think that so-called “non drafting” races are not actually won by the strongest runner, you are deluding yourself. In 99% of the cases, they are, just like with ITU races. In fact, I’d argue that a breakaway in an ITU race is actually MORE likely to stick than a breakaway in a non-drafting Olympic race. Almost all triathlons of importance are won by the strongest runner. You could probably name just as many ITU races where the fastest run time did not win the race as you could major Ironmans (Germany & Kona, basically).
I’m not complaining about that. I’m just saying that implying that only ITU racing is determined by the fastest run is quite naive.
One of the biggest things holding back ITU olympic distance triathlons is that very few people outside the elites actually race that way. There were 48 men elites who finished in London, so that is an incredibly small number of pros compared to many other sports.
From 66 starters - That’s quite an attrition rate!
I think the problem with having draft legal events is that they need to be grouped somewhat by swimming ability, otherwise the slower swimmers won’t enter.
In the UK, the BTF won’t even sanction a non-elite draft legal event, which pretty much limits organisers who even want to put one on. There are a few about though elsewhere in europe.
From 66 starters - That’s quite an attrition rate!
I didn’t really add that up, but it does pose a question. With the racing being so close a puncture or any mishap along the way will mean you will really struggle to get in the top 10, and so some pros will pull out and save themselves for the next key race if it is not many days away ; and that poses a small problem for the sport.
The above said though I would give alot of kudos to Brownlee who lost his swim goggles in an earlier race and still went on to win.
Really I think the elites are incredible, but there will no doubt be a cost as it is hard to maintain that level of racing for several years. Which again makes me think there isn’t enough elite ITU triathletes. How could ITU make the second tier of mens qualifying races more interesting or more viewed?? I could list some ideas, but have said them before.
Also the triathlon.org site is good but I tried to watch the mens race today and couldn’t see the countdown to start time from here in Germany. Have watched several of the prior races but 10mins searching around the site was all my spare time this day. Maye I will have ‘to pull the gorse out of my pockets’ and sign up for the years online TV sub in future years??
G.
I watched it on BBC1 today.
The commentator said that the swim consisted of 2 loops - a 1,000 metre loop and a 500 metre loop.
It seemed to me that the swimmers swam the same loop twice thereby giving 2 loops of 750 metres each.
Mind you that was not the only mistake the commentators made.
As for the course I must say that I am not a big fan of loop de loop courses. It makes sense for the spectators though.
Sorry Jibber, I shouldn’t of belittled you, few beers last night + stressful missus the day before a race. Apologies.
But…
I’ll always argue with people who have the opinion that ITU is all about the run, because I’ve seen how much time these guys put into their bike and swim training, so that they’re actually there at the money end of the race; The Run. It’s just far too naive to suggest that the race is won just on the run, because it can certainly be lost on the swim or bike long before the run.
Tactically, it’s slowly moving toward being a team sport, but it’s a slow process. Athletes enter through their federations, so technically they are racing as a ‘team’, but realistically it’s very rare. I could count the amount of times I’ve actually seen more than two athletes combine, on one hand. You’ll get the odd time you see one guy / girl help another perhaps who they train with or whatever, but rarely do federations have the leverage over the athletes to actually force the issue. But I have a sneaky suspicion that the new president has that firmly in the sights and things will start being put in place at the next congress to make teams racing more the norm in time for London.
People who don’t like ITU racing must hate the men’s race in Kona. Good luck to the missus tomorrow!