man, you guys are slipping. or did i just not see the threads, and i’m slipping? libby’s new gig is chief of staff to his cellmate. gonzales is investigated for impeding a witness’ testimony. bad day for the honor and dignity set.
I’m pretty sure both honor and dignity are long dead at this point. Honor got carbombed in Iraq and dignity died a long, slow death during the Clinton administration.
“gonzales is investigated for impeding a witness’ testimony.”
Really? I hadn’t heard that. Who could have imagined that the scenario of the fired AGs would play out as an investigation of a noncrime resulting in a possible process crime? I never would have guessed.
I just can’t imagine why Goodling took the Fifth to get immunity.
“I’m pretty sure both honor and dignity are long dead at this point.”
okay. i was reaching. “honor and dignity” was always a stretch. but these guys are also the “law and order” crowd, aren’t they? hows about a little shout out for some law and order being served up? or is that now passé as well?
it sort of reminds me of las vegas marketing. i remember about 10 or 15 years ago, vegas was being hocked as a destination for the family. circus circus, and all that. then it became apparent that vegas didn’t want to be a family destination, and that got traded in for “what happens in vegas stays in vegas.”
i think it would just be nice of this administration adopted a straightforward approach, and just said that it’s all about doing what’s proper in order to protect what it sees as america’s way of life. laws and dignity and stuff were luxuries we used to be able to afford, but those days are regrettably gone. why not just up and cop to that? i think that’s a defensible position, at least to 30% of americans. it only needs to cobble up 21% more using other various means to get its majority.
What you’re saying is that it looks like Gonzales commited a crime to cover up legal, but politically embarrassing activity.
This gets him a pass? It’s OK to impede a witness’ testimony if the testimony isn’t about a crime?
“i think it would just be nice of this administration adopted a straightforward approach”
That would be refreshing. When was the last time we had an honest President? I believe it was Carter and it seemed like nearly everybody hated him.
“Who could have imagined that the scenario of the fired AGs would play out as an investigation of a noncrime resulting in a possible process crime?”
why is it you have such a disdain for process? isn’t process what gets you from dictator – benevolent or otherwise – to a coequal branches of government with an independent judiciary? isn’t process a large part of what grants us civil liberties, or are those just another annoyance we can’t afford in today’s age?
realize, art, these aren’t democrats haranguing republicans for political gain. with libby and gonzales you’re complaining about charges or investigations brought by republicans against republicans. fortunately, there are some republicans out there who do care about process, even if you don’t.
you don’t tamper with witnesses, art. you don’t lie under oath. you don’t impede investigations. i can’t speak for everybody of course, but as for myself, this requisite behavior when i decide who i’m going to vote for to head up my white house and justice department.
“why is it you have such a disdain for process?”
I am the one who has respect for process. In particular, the purpose of the Congressional oversight process is not to criminalize policy differences between competing political parties.
There just aren’t enough bad guys out there, apparently, so the country is in need of more politically charged investigations so as to somehow create one.
Thank heavens our Congress is accomplishing something like launching investigations and passing nonbinding resolutions. You wouldn’t want them to cut earmarks or actually do some legislation, that is for sure.
How dare Gonzalez review the Attorney firings with Goodling. That is just outrageous. Who does he think he is, her boss or something discussing an important issue to the Department with the involved subordinate?
Oh, wait.
Vitus, if you look over Art’s posts over the years, starting with Martha Stewart, he has consistently defended anyone who obscured an investigation to the point where they can’t be charged with the underlying crime itself. This is nothing new.
" What you’re saying is that it looks like Gonzales commited a crime to cover up legal, but politically embarrassing activity. "
I said no such thing, nor do I know anyone who said it.
In fact, I seriously doubt such a thing happened.
Link please?
Scooter is going to scoot right past the jail house for the beach house. There’s no way GWB lets him go to jail.
**i think it would just be nice of this administration adopted a straightforward approach, and just said that it’s all about doing what’s proper in order to protect what it sees as america’s way of life. laws and dignity and stuff were luxuries we used to be able to afford, but those days are regrettably gone. why not just up and cop to that? i think that’s a defensible position, at least to 30% of americans. it only needs to cobble up 21% more using other various means to get its majority. **
Right as if the Democratic Party in it’s present shape is going to do that. This week instead of seeing real progress on an Immigration bill that puts security and safety in equal measure with dignity and rights for immigrants we have Reid impugning the generals, Congress on a witchhunt after Gonzales, Leahy pushing back on Southwick to appease the Nutroots, oh and the erstwhile next President of the United States has one of his key supporters indicted for business fraud and influence peddling in the government of Illinois.
Yeah honor and dignity will be restored posthaste under the banner of the Dems. Can’t wait.
“I am the one who has respect for process. In particular, the purpose of the Congressional oversight process is not to criminalize policy differences between competing political parties.”
in other words, you’re raging against an entity that is doing nothing illegal?
“There just aren’t enough bad guys out there, apparently, so the country is in need of more politically charged investigations so as to somehow create one.”
did you miss the part about libby and gonzales being investigated/prosecuted by REPUBLICAN officers of the court, placed in a position of oversight by OTHER REPUBLICANS to investigate/prosecute these very process crimes you’re saying ought not to be prosecuted?
“Thank heavens our Congress is accomplishing something like launching investigations”
did you miss the part about libby/gonzales being investigated/prosecuted by U.S. attorneys who are republican appointees, inspectors general of the DOJ, and the REPUBLICAN appointed office of protessional responsibility overseeing DOJ?
i guess you missed all that.
Dan there are always going to be investigations. Some are politicalky motivated, some are genuinely needed to root out corruption. In my mind this ranks right up their with the travel office investigation. Both of which are highly politically motivated. If that is how we want our country to run then have at it. I think we are better than that.
Bush is ill served by the fact that Gonzalez will not step down. Having said that I don’t think it is loyalty to Gonzalez that is driving Bush it is Bush’s view of the power of the Presidency. He will not allow Congress to push him into dismissing a cabinet member based on politics. We all know that the longer an investigation goes on the easier it is to get caught in a lie though so sooner or later Gonzalez will be toast.
And if you ever watch House…you know that EVERYONE lies…
In the mean time important legislation sits idly by while we allow our lawmakers to play political games.
“Right as if the Democratic Party in it’s present shape is going to do that.”
bingo, the knee jerk response. don’t take responsibility, instead find somebody else to use for comparison. this is a perfect illustration of the slowman doctrine: people will countenance in their government actions that they wouldn’t dare commit in their own personal lives.
it’s okay to say that your side engages in the tactical mistakes that any group of managers would be guilty of. it’s another thing to countenance bad acts – felonies you and yours would never think of committing.
there are always going to be investigations. Some are politicalky motivated, some are genuinely needed to root out corruption. In my mind this ranks right up their with the travel office investigation.
That might very well be true. The question is, so what? None of that justifies lying under oath, or impeding the testimony of a witness.
Actually my point is that it is easy for you to sit and throw stones at the Republicans for their lack of honor and dignity when in reality I am shocked, yes SHOCKED, to see that you are not taking your own party to task for colossal failings that have occurred in the past three months.
Oh and don’t get me started on David Obey’s inability to handle all the 35,000 earmarks in the Congressional bills…poor baby…all that staff and nothing to do.
I think it is easy to suggest that I am the one with the knee jerk reaction when in fact when your boys take power you will have a lot of 'splainin to do if it is this current crop of yahoos.
Why anyone would be proud to have Harry Reid as their leader is completely beyond me.
Tom:
It is a righteous position that you take. My point is that everyone lies. Some are big, some are small, some are criminal, some are meant to protect others from harm. If your rule is that everyone who lies deserves to be prosectuted then we will have no one in government.
And…politically motivated investigations will turn up all kinds of dirt. Like it or not that is the truth. The travel office investigations under Bill and Hillary Clinton were the same type of thing. Politically motivated investigations meant to embarass and harass the President.
The problem is there are always good people who actually think that this is rooting our corruption, they end up on juries and bring back convictions. My point is that I don’t honestly believe it advances the cause of democracy in America.
Fire Gonzalez for stupidity and arrogance. Fire Bush for appointing a man to the AG post that didn’t deserve to be there anymore than Harriet Miers deserved to be on the Supreme Court but don’t destroy them in the name of “honor for all”.
It isn’t my position that everyone who lies should be prosecuted- only those who lie under oath. I’m as cynical as the next guy, but I really don’t think that’s an unrealistic position.
And yes, some investigations are politically motivated, and are intended to dig up dirt on the opposition, and if they go on long enough, will inevitably uncover something embarrassing. That’s the nature of the game. When that happens, the available options are to take the hit, spin the news, smear the opposition, and so on. Lying under oath is not one of those options. It’s not part of the political game. I recognize that the political game is a contact sport, but I’m not willing to relax the rules to the extent that perjury, witness tampering, and other procedural crimes are allowed.
My point is that I don’t honestly believe it advances the cause of democracy in America.
You have a problem with the investigation, and that’s fine, and I might even agree with you in some cases. As Art would say, that’s why we have elections. If you think a politician is using the investigative process inappropriately, give him the boot on election day. Meantime, the laws applying to that investigation still apply. Period.
The difference being that “honor and dignity” formed a huge part of the Republican platform from the mid-90s to present. I don’t recall Democrats making the same campaign process. Don’t worry, however, they are well on their way to reneging on their platform of eliminating pork.